Malaysiakini: What is the most effective way to dislodge foreign objects from the vagina?

Leong: This is a very controversial issue and I am sure there are many differing opinions. But being a medical doctor, we have to look at this from different manners. On one hand, the police have to make sure that detainees are not having any secret weapons or drugs in their private parts like the vagina and rectum. I don't think there's a universal way that is the best (way) to make sure the objects are dislodged. If I put myself in the shoes of detainees, of course it will be a bit embarrassing. But if I put myself in the shoes of the police, if there's a danger that there's a weapon hidden and the police officers are not qualified to do a vagina or rectum examination. Perhaps this is a compromise whereby on the one hand it's embarrassing to detainees but on the other, without touching the detainees, these things might not be dislodged. Of course there are no 100 percent thing and no best way to dignify the detainees as well as achieve the purpose of making sure there are no secret things hidden.

But being on the neutral side, I can understand the detainee's concern but I can also understand the concerns of prison warders and police officers. So that's the main thing.

So what would be the most effective way?

Of course, if you want to do it, the best and effective way is to get a doctor to examine everybody. With a nurse and female doctor to chaperon if there is a female detainee. But I am not sure if the government is able to effectively do this. The other thing is to train female police officers or female prison warders to do vagina and rectum examinations. That will be the best way. We can do it in a comfortable and dignified manner. But I am sure there are limitations.

You are suggesting that squatting is one of the most effective ways?

Well, it's the cheapest in a sense although it might not be the most dignified (way). But if you have to quickly scan let's say 100 detainees, you are short of time. I don't know if anybody would have a better idea. Of course, we don't have to do certain things which could embarrass them. But at the end of the day, there's a danger that a person may harm a police officer or other detainees hiding a weapon in their vagina or rectum. Unless someone can come out with a better idea or get a doctor to examine every single detainee, then we are really short of good ideas (chuckles).

Meaning...?

Meaning to say that perhaps this might be the most cost effective manner. I am not saying that it's not embarrassing. It may not be the best idea. But in the circumstances that we and the police work in. In a disco raid, if you have 80 detainees, unless you want doctors present to examine all detainees. That's another issue altogether.

Some people argue that detainees who commit minor offences such as traffic offences but are asked to strip and do ear squats....

I think we all know police officers or JPJ (Road Transport Department) officers always summon motorists at road blocks for traffic offences. But we must also understand that although to the individuals, it could be embarrassing, you must look at the greater good when they do this, they help us to detect elements of society which are out there at 3am and doing things which we would not do. They may not be doing criminal acts at that time but they might have such backgrounds which if the police officers do not investigate then we are letting the bad guys go.

Of course I am not saying that I am pro for everybody to be examined. But the police are doing their job. We should understand their role. Of course there might be a better way to do it. But at the moment, I think the police probably need a bit of polishing. But it doesn't mean that they are not doing their jobs. They are trying to protect society. We must look at this issue in that context.

Unless we find a better way, ear squats is the best method to dislodge foreign objects?

Unless somebody comes out with a better idea or better way of searching these things....and, if somebody can give us better ideas, I am sure the police will happily embrace it and use it....

What's the better way then?

As I told you, if the government is willing to station a doctor with a nurse to chaperon and to really check so there's no need for ear squats or for anybody to be in the nude.

As for the effectiveness of ear squats?

I think if the object is big enough and not in a harmonious position with the vagina or rectum, I would say it could be dislodged.

All patients will definitely have a very uncomfortable feeling when asked to do squats whether it is with (holding the) ear or not. The police officers will be able to notice and may be then on a selective basis, do a more thorough search on that particular detainee.

What is your opinion of this letter penned by a doctor to malaysiakini?

'Dr with conscience' has got a point. Of course, if the object is very small like a rubber band, it's not going to come out. But if the person is a drug smuggler or if they hide a weapon of significant size, supposedly they put in 20 plastic bags full of drugs. It (the squats) could dislodge one or two of them. If you are talking about a small object, of course he's correct, it will not be dislodged. But if you are talking about large objects as in weapons or drugs, I think there's a very big possibility they can be dislodged. So I think everything has to be taken into context. We have to have a very balanced view.

Is holding the ears a necessity when doing the squats?

I am not a police expert. This is how the police describe the traditional way of checking a detainee. As I told you if anybody can suggest a better way, I am sure the police will embrace and follow it thoroughly so the dignity of the detainees can be preserved and whatever hidden objects can be found.

You were saying that small objects will not be easy to dislodge...

Let's put it this way, even it's a very small object and I want to do a private examination of the vagina, sometimes we can still miss it if the object is small.

I think there are two issues here. One is the preservation of dignity, the other is the preservation of law and order. One question you need to ask do you want our country to be overrun by drug runners? I am sure the answer is no. Do we want people to be hurt if they are in jail or prison wardens being killed if there is a weapon there? Again I am sure the answer is no. We must look at it in this context. Of course to the person concerned, who has detained or may have done no wrong, of course it is a great thing to him. But to a detainee who has a criminal background and we know that he has been doing wrong and may be on the police record, to him it's probably part and parcel of being a criminal so those issue may not arise for him.

Have you asked any of your patients to perform the squats and if so, were they effective?

I have no personal experience. I have never asked anybody to squat to dislodge any equipment or hidden drugs or hidden weapons. But from what I know about the anatomy and the function of the vagina and rectum, I think if the object is big enough, it can be dislodged. I certainly agree that although what the police is doing now is not the best, but it doesn't mean it is the worst. There are doing their job to serve the public so that they can detect certain things. It's not a 100 percent thing neither is it zero. I am sure they've found things hidden before.

As mentioned before, the argument now is that anybody who steps into a lock-up even for minor offences are searched this way...

Perhaps the issue here is not ear squats. Perhaps the issue is the selection of who should undergo this examination and squatting. So I am sure the police are open to suggestions and somebody can come out with a very good guideline agreeable to the police, I am sure they will implement it. I don't think the police want to embarrass themselves . We must look at the greater picture of society's safety.

So the conclusion is that ear squats, for now, is the cheapest and most effective method?

Yes, unless somebody comes out with a better way. We must look at the bigger picture. Maybe a proper selection procedure on who should undergo (the search) might need to be suggested and implemented. If anybody else has a good suggestion then it's fine. On the other hand, to have doctors examining everybody can be said to be an overkill as well right? The question is selection as to who should be searched. That could be the greater question to answer. We must remember we are here to protect society. I am sure we don't want our country to be run over by people carrying drugs in condoms in their vaginas..

I don't think anybody questions that. But it is why should everyone...

As I said, the question is not the ear squats but who should undergo it. I am sure all of us will agree that if there is a criminal, all of us would like to catch him. That should be a greater guiding line for us not other things which....we just need to fine tune and streamline.