Q&A: Standing up to the 'bully boys in Umno'

In this second of a three-part series, Penang Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng talks about facing up to the 'bully boys in Umno' over the issue of the New Economic Policy.

Malaysiakini: One of the problems is human resources after you have unexpectedly won the state government. A lot of the people within the state exco lack experience in administering the state. This is the first time the DAP is ruling a state. How do you overcome that? Your chief-of-staff Jeff Ooi acknowledged that a lot of them have no experience in running a company, let alone running a state.

Lim: I would say I have run a company before, but I would say running a company is nothing compared to running a state. I don’t deny the fact that I have no experience in running a state but let me ask you, who has? Who has experience in running a state unless you are thrust into it, where experience can only be acquired.

What I think is most important is whether you run a state administration well. You must get your basis and premise right, get your principle correct. What are these principles? I said just now, CAT (Competency, Accountability and Transparency). If you have a CAT government, you ask all those who want to serve Penang, to see Penang prosperous, to be our CAT partners, I think you are on the right track.

Among them include those from Gerakan where you are getting a lot of flak for it. You have invited Gerakan, Umno people (to serve in the state government) but what about PAS?

They are already included.

There is no particular role for them.

They are councillors. The portfolios have to be discussed between PAS and PKR. In that respect, we give them that leeway.

But still, how can you explain that the DAP-led Penang state government sort of excludes PAS compared to Perak and Selangor, where there is more of a formal coalition?

If you ask the PAS state assemblyman or the PAS commissioner in Penang, I don’t think they will agree with you that we have excluded PAS. When I went to distribute aids to the victims in Penang, the PAS leaders were with me, we ensured they were there together with me and they are invited to attend our meetings. I don’t think they are excluded. But in terms of posts, out of deference to PKR, we let PKR and PAS discuss this issue.

Is PAS formally part of the state government coalition in Penang?

They were not exactly part of the coalition in the beginning but they were brought in later and we would want them to play a role as a result of discussion between PKR and PAS. I would not want to go beyond that.

We understand that you prefer to call it a DAP-PKR state government rather than a Pakatan Rakyat state government in Penang?

At the moment. Because Pakatan Rakyat has not been formalised.

But elsewhere it has been known as the Pakatan Rakyat state government.

If that is what they want to call it but as I said, Pakatan Rakyat has not been formalised nationally. As the secretary-general (of DAP), I have to abide by that decision.

Does that reflect DAP's fear (of PAS) - that it is still there given the support you have from the Chinese community?

It’s just a question that it has not been formalised.

So the Penang state government is really no different from the one in Perak and Selangor?

When we formed the state government, it was a DAP-PKR joint coalition government. Of course, later we tried to bring in PAS through discussion indirectly ... but since PKR handled all these portfolios, we consider this question is to be decided by PAS and PKR.

So you are saying they will be included as part of the state government?

We want to include them in roles, to play their role in the Penang state government but this is subject to the discussion between PAS and PKR.

Do you think that DAP has somehow still been caught in this fear of the Islamic state when in fact quite a number of Chinese voters have voted for PAS?

They voted for PAS because they wanted to teach Barisan Nasional a lesson and PAS downplayed the question of Islamic state. If that is brought to the fore, it would have been a very different situation. Our role is to ensure that wouldn’t occur again.

Your fear is still there?

The people’s fear rather than our fear. We have to articulate their concerns. I think for instance Perak Menteri Besar (Mohammad Nizar Jamaluddin) has done very well, in terms of taking a moderate approach but we want to see that reflected at the national level. Unfortunately, there are one or two statements from top PAS leaders which are not in accordance to the spirit that is agreed upon - that Pakatan Rakyat is not about Islamic state, now or in the future.

(Therefore, Pakatan) must be formalised so there is no discordant voices.

With this fear, do you see Pakatan as a viable coalition?

Let it be formalised. For me to say at this stage would be premature because we want it to be formalised with a concrete structure, common programme and framework.

Has there been any talk about that (formalising the Pakatan coalition)?

That has to be deliberated upon much more thoroughly.

So it’s not anytime soon?

It’s still an on-going discussion and it is proceeding.

In terms of handling the federal-state government relationship, do you see yourself handling the issue more like an opposition leader than a state government leader?

In what way do I carry myself as opposition leader?

For instance, your first few comments about the PGCC (Penang Global City Centre) project (where Lim was seen as being rather sarcastic towards Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi).

As far as the PGCC is concerned, I think I mentioned I don’t understand how he (Abdullah) could attend a launching of a massive commercial project which has not even been approved, no development plan has been submitted. I could not understand how he could be so uninformed that he was actually launching an illegal project - illegal in a sense that no building plans have been submitted to the local authorities.

What is the status of the project now?

There is no status at such because the plan has not even been submitted.

Have you met with the people representing PGCC?

They did request for a meeting but I feel that under the circumstances, it’s better they follow the law and comply with the law before they seek a meeting to brief me on the project. It’s better they go through the process first, and let us make our decision. If we reject them and they request for a meeting, I can consider.

After all, I am quite surprised with the turnaround. Before the election, we tried to seek a meeting and they refused to see us, now they want to see me. Of course like I said, if necessary, I will meet them.

On the controversy over your remark about the New Economic Policy (NEP). In hindsight, do you think it was a mistake that you made that statement in your maiden speech as chief minister?

Sometimes telling the truth is a mistake... What I said was this - I want to run a government free from the NEP that breeds corruption, systematic inefficiency and abuse of power and as a solution, I suggested open tenders. What we were focusing was on the gravy train aspect of the NEP, who in their right mind would oppose to the objectives of the NEP (for) abolition of poverty and restructuring of the economy to remove the identification of the economic function with race? That is something anybody would support.

The only problem is that it has been manipulated just to enrich a few whether Malays, Chinese or Indians, especially the Umno Malay-putras. To be fair, you ask the ordinary men on the street ‘ ada saham tak? ’ They will say ‘mana ada, semua kat Rafidah mungkin-lah’ . But I am not saying this is true, but this will be their reaction and that is the public perception.

We want to say ‘get off the gravy train’. There should be no more gravy train but a Malaysian train so everyone can be prosperous, benefit and have shares in it. So my solution is to have open tenders, we are focusing on the corruption aspect but yet it has been manipulated by the mainstream media to say that we want to abolish the NEP, and Utusan (Malaysia) continues with such lies.

Of course, in hindsight whether that should have been said, if knowing that it will be manipulated, twisted and turned, completely distorted ... of course, in hindsight perhaps that shouldn’t have been done. But if we look at the context of the statement that was said, everyone said there was nothing wrong with it.

The problem is if we are afraid of the mainstream media distorting it then we can’t say anything because anything that I say can be subject to distortion by the mainstream media, so I will still hold on to what I said, that my intention is against the abuses of power.

But then you spent your first week (as CM) fighting fires (over the NEP controversy).

Not exactly fighting fires but also implementing policies and also stand firm. It is something new ... stand(ing) firm, because all along, when Umno organises demonstrations, generally you will back down and submit to their will. This time I said no, we will not back down, compromise and will proceed with open tenders. We faced up to Umno - the bully boys in Umno. Finally, they also have to face the reality that the people of Penang supported this new government. The new government should be allowed to carry out its work of governing the state.

Has the Penang state government done anything to deny (the rights of) any individual that has caused the losses or detrimental to their benefits? No. Can you name me one individual? Apart from probably one or two companies but talking about Penang people at large, I don’t think they have suffered losses as a result of our policies. Instead, I think that by implementing these policies, we have given fresh hope and impetus that reform is possible.

You are talking about the interest for all Penangites, what about the complaint from the Indian community (in the state) that they continue to be marginalised?

I want to see where the complaints come from.

Some from your own party.

Who are they? I can’t comment on something that we don’t know.

Are you saying there is no such complaint within the party?

If there are complaints, that will be for our internal channel (to resolve). Unhappiness among several members about certain issues will be common. I don’t think they have gone to the extent to come out publicly. Who has came out openly to complain? (Deputy Chief Minister Prof P Ramasamy) has been unfairly criticised.

Is that because Indian DAP members feel that they should be given more posts?

Everyone are given post (regardless) Indians, Chinese or Malays but as I said, we want to ensure this CAT principle and we don’t want to give an impression that we only give post to our own people. Generally, there may be some dissatisfaction, that is to be expected but the interest of the people and our commitment towards achieving CAT takes precedence.

Talking about Parliament, you and few other DAP leaders - your deputy chief minister is also a MP, your chief-of-staff is also a MP, how are you going to deal with this dual tasks especially when Parliament is in sitting - all top guns of Penang will be here (in Kuala Lumpur)?

Not necessary. We will be here when we are required. My focus and priority will still be running the Penang state government. If I come here, that is to promote the interest of Penang and to advance their benefit whenever possible and to ensure their rights would not be diminished. The Penang presence will be felt.

Some of the DAP candidates were running in both state and parliament in the March 8 polls partly because of political hedging - that you were not sure and it’s better to have a well-known person to run so the chances of victory will be higher. Given that now we have a completely different political situation, is there any talk that perhaps there shouldn’t be such a policy next time around?

You can ask the same question to PKR.

Compared with DAP, PKR has a very small number (of politicians holding state and parliamentary seats).

How many does PKR have?

Three - Khalid Ibrahim, Azmin Ali and Mustaffa Kamil Ayub - where two were elected and Mustaffa lost in both seats. DAP has more who ran in both seats.

Yes, (and that is) because we won. If we had not won, that would have been different.

Still you have more people running for two seats.

Yes, we have, but at that time it appeared that these candidates had a better chance. It was at that time more (efforts being made) to try to win the seats. (Even) some of the candidates were reluctant to stand for both seats.

Is there any talk that it shouldn’t be a strategy next time?

That would be something deliberated and factored in.

A lot of people are making comparisons - even BN does not do that.

Of course in the past, it was important we wanted to win the seats and we felt that only a well-known candidate will win the seat, that was the primary consideration. To be frank, many candidates were reluctant to stand in both seats because they were afraid of losing both and they only want to stand in only one which they are sure of winning. We have to compel and force them to take the seats...

You are also secretary-general of the party. There is a lot of stuff on your plate, so who is running the party?

That is something we talk about time management - how we distribute, delegate and focus on the big picture.

We can see in terms of reacting to certain (national) issue, it’s not coming from you anymore.

What issue I have not reacted?

We don’t see a lot of press statements coming from you on national issues.

I have issued some press statements which you don’t print, even though it’s issued from KL.

Clearly we think there has been a reduction in the number of press statements.

The number of statements may have reduced but I still give press conferences. Now I am focusing on Penang, there are many news on Penang. I am still multi-tasking, it’s just that our focus is different because you are in KL and not in Penang. If you are in Penang you will be complaining (on the number of statements made) like most of the reporters (did).

We know your focus is on Penang, that’s fair enough but there is still a need for the party itself to focus on national issues. We are not seeing that much from you but more from your father, Kit Siang. He is still issuing a lot of statements. That’s where people think perhaps your father is running the party.

We have a collective leadership. If people want to have that perception, that is their right but we are a party which is run collectively, believe and exercise collective responsibility.

For instance, the issue of (the aborted) boycott of DAP state assemblymen in Perak (over the swearing-in ceremony of a PAS menteri besar)...

I overruled that.

Was that a mistake by Kit Siang?

I directed the members to attend the swearing in. I think we leave it as that.

Tomorrow: Mom may issue an 'eviction notice'