In the second and final part of an interview with malaysiakini , terrorism expert Dr Rohan Gunaratna who was in Kuala Lumpur on Friday to speak at the invitation of the Institute of Strategic and International Studies (Isis) outlines the necessary steps to put terrorist organisations 'out of fashion'.

Malaysiakini: Is it beyond dispute that the Bali bombings were carried out by Jemaah Islamiah (JI)?

Rohan: Absolutely. I think we should not entertain even the slightest idea that it was not JI that did the Bali bombing. It would be a fatal mistake to make.

Indonesia was already under intense pressure to take action against Abu Bakar Bashir before the Bali bombings. Why would JI push their luck?

Still the Indonesian government is hesitant to target JI as an organisation. They are only targeting JI members who are directly linked with the Bali attack.

Why do you think that is the case?

It is because the political leaders of that country have put their personal and political interests before national and regional security interests.

Isn't the Indonesian government's concern valid that if Abu Bakar Bashir was arrested before the Bali bombings, there would have been internal unrest?

Absolutely not. In fact it would make Indonesia a more stable place for Indonesians and foreigners. They have the wrong idea that it would spark off unrest. It would only make Indonesia a safer place.

Look at Indonesia how nice they were to those groups but look what happened in (Bali).

You mentioned that if Malaysia had taken pre-emptive action in arresting the Sept 11 terrorists, the attacks in the US may not have happened. Isn't that a dangerous thing to do since it might allow governments to make pre-emptive arrests very easily?

Yes, but I also believe that terrorism today has moved from a tactical threat to a strategic threat. Tactical threat (refers to the time) when terrorist groups were considered a nuisance and a law and order problem. They didn't mount big attacks like Sept 11.

Now, it is a strategic threat, a big threat, so you have no option but to take pre-emptive strikes against terrorist organisations because terrorists want to kill more people and conduct mass casualties.

If there is a high threat of terrorist attacks then I think pre-emptive actions are justified. If you know that your twin towers are going to be attacked it is better to take a pre-emptive step.

But no one really knows if it is for real, it is always a warning

That is why you need to develop high grade, high quality intelligence. You need to invest more.

Do you think it is fair that the US continues to put so much pressure on Malaysia despite the multiple arrests of suspected terrorists here?

You can't blame the Malaysians, you can't blame the Filipinos or the Singaporeans. These organisations are invisible organisations. They have lived in the US for two years before they mounted 9/11. The Americans can't blame any of these countries.

They are equally guilty because for years, al-Qaeda has been raising money in the US. Osama bin Laden purchased his satellite telephone in New York. He purchased his plane from the US. People think that I may be trying to promote US (views), but no, I have said all this.

No one can point the finger at Malaysia or at any country because whenever Malaysia got to know about al-Qaeda, Malaysia took action. Malaysia has a zero-tolerance policy. The only thing is that these groups were active in this country below the intelligence radar screen without coming into attention.

Based on your research, why do you think a number of rich elites, who are educated in Western countries, get involved in al-Qaeda?

The Islamists movements are recruiting across the spectrum, the rich, the poor, the educated, the less educated, the recent converts, the cradle Muslims, the new converts. They are operating across the spectrum.

For instance, Osama bin Laden comes from one of the richest non-royal Saudi families. Ayman al-Zawahiri comes from one of the most educated Egyptian families.

But at the same time you find very poor people in al-Qaeda. They are recruiting from a very wide range.

What is driving them is ideology the belief system to wage a universal jihad. It is not poverty, not lack of education. People become more vulnerable if they are poor and if there is lack of education but the real motivation for them to join this group is ideology.

That is why we have to do more counter-propaganda.

Would you say that a large part of the solution lies in the hands of Western governments seeing that a common grievance is the US' role in supporting Israel and what the Israelis do to the Palestinians?

Unless a resolution is found for that conflict, no matter what other measures are tried, they will not be truly effective.

In the last chapter of my book ( Inside al-Qaeda: Global Network of Terror ), I have said that the Palestinian and the Kashimiri conflict must be resolved. Otherwise, there is a continuous flow of support and recruits. But for that, countries like Malaysia must put maximum pressure on the US.

Countries like Malaysia are small (and have limited influence).

No, Malaysia is a very important partner today in the game. It is becoming increasingly important.

Influential and important (world) leaders must try to understand what is happening and they must try to work with the Muslim communities and Muslim leaders and send violent Islamism out of fashion.

Osama bin Laden initially meant to target Muslim leaders of several countries. How did the conflict widen to other countries?

The initial phase of targeting was at Muslim countries (such as) Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Algeria.

(But) it was very costly for the (radical Islamists). The regimes brought their family members into custody and confiscated their assets. So they decided to hit the head of the poisonous snake instead which is the US (since it is seen as) protecting these corrupt regimes. Osama called these countries corrupt so that's why they targeted the US.

Now we have seen the third phase of targeting friends and allies of the US. They killed 14 German tourists in Tunisia, 11 French naval technicians in Karachi and of course, the Australians (in Bali). They have added six more (target) countries Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada and Australia.

Al-Qaeda has cells in Southeast Asia but they also have a strong presence in Europe. Is there an anti-terrorism centre planned in Europe similar to the one to be set up in Malaysia?

In Europe, there is no need for such a centre because the European security and intelligence and law enforcement people are cooperating very closely.

Do you think al-Qaeda can survive without Osama?

Al-Qaeda can survive but it will not have the same momentum. That is why it is so important to target Osama bin Laden and the other leaders.

Do they know where he is now?

They have a rough idea that he is at the Afghan-Pakistan border but that is a very long border 1,520 miles (3,952km) long.