In his last major address to Johor Umno members in 2000, veteran leader Musa Hitam chided his audience at length for the " sokong dan setuju " (support and agree) syndrome afflicting the party.

Three years later, malaysiakini catches up with Musa - a former deputy premier and deputy Umno president - to see if anything has changed in order to improve the party's image in time for the next general election.

Malaysiakini: You were previously quite critical of the situation within Umno, such as the problem of money politics and the "sokong dan setuju" syndrome. Do you think Umno has mended itself?

Musa Hitam

: Well, I've said my piece then. Let's see what is coming. If I start repeating it again before the poor fellow (Abdullah Ahmad Badawi) takes over, I would be saying all the things that can be misinterpreted.

I would give some time for things to settle down under the new leadership. It could do worse or it could do better, whatever 'better' means. We hope (Umno issues) are not going to be the order of the day under the Abdullah regime.

Can he bring about some kind of reform in Umno?

Reform is a dirty word. Maybe change. The point is that it will be an Abdullah government. (Outgoing Prime Minister) Dr Mahathir (Mohamad) had his 2020 vision and he has got his pet projects, big projects which have made Malaysia known. Abdullah may have different priorities.

Abdullah is known as Mr Clean. So this means he has an option to deal with corruption.

(On Aug 11), Abdullah made a speech on corruption. The interesting thing is that after (his speech), Abdullah asked if anyone had any questions for him. It is an interesting style. He interacted and I was pleasantly surprised that many officers stood up and said their piece.

After him, I gave the keynote address. I spoke bluntly... (but) it was well received. A number of officers came up to me and told me that it was a very good thing that I said those things. The message (against corruption) needs to be put across continuously.

I am a realist - corruption is here to stay but the issue is how to contain it. How do you make sure that people who are discovered feel that they are out of line and committing something serious?

If you start listing cases, then we are in trouble. It relates to the judiciary, the mentality, the psychology, leadership by example. We started that way: Bersih, Cekap, Amanah (Clean, Efficient and Trustworthy - the slogan of the incoming Mahathir-Musa government in 1982). I was just reminding them. But implementation needs to be leadership by example.

We will see how Abdullah will tackle this.

If he chooses to do something about it, wouldn't it make him an inconvenient candidate for a number of politicians?

It is speculation which I am not prepared to accept yet.

Is there political will to solve this problem?

There has been a lot of lip service (but) the press is more willing and open to expose stories. This is an improvement compared to many years ago. Because of these exposs, (the authorities) have taken action. I would like to consider these as positive developments.

The problem we have in our country is that we have developed so fast that materialism has won over spiritualism.

My point is that after all the lectures, reading the Quran, or the Hadith, you still want to keep up with the Joneses.

Maybe that is the appeal of PAS to some Malay voters...

Who says PAS is not corrupt?

They may be but they do not appear so. You do agree that Umno is perceived to be...

Umno has been in power for so long and this is a wealthy country. The result is exactly what I just said. PAS, running Kelantan and Terengganu... what do you expect? Maybe on a smaller (scale) but it is there.

I think there has been action on a number of small cases, but there are also big cases which have not been investigated.

I am not in the position to find fault. I am saying that yes, it does exist. There are big fish as well as small fish. There is a need for enforcement and sensitisation.

You may be convinced (the government) is serious only if they arrest the prime minister. But if the court finds him innocent, they will say it is a bad court. But if it finds him guilty, then it is said that the country is corrupt.

To check corruption, we need an independent judiciary and a free media.

I don't think that is an issue I am contesting. The cynical viewpoint is that people find the courts independent only if people are found guilty. This is the reality.

The final analysis is that the leadership will be accountable to the people. I am convinced that in this country the electoral system is acceptable enough. In Malaysia, the level of political consciousness and the enthusiasm to vote is amazing. There have been near-misses.

In other words, it is possible for the government to be thrown out through the electoral process as it is.

It is possible but very difficult...

No, no... come on! A thousand votes? There are near-misses that made them really... They could have just gone.

I am reasonably satisfied. As chair of the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights, I have led many delegations to observe electoral processes in quite a lot of places. Given the weaknesses, I am satisfied that our electoral process does provide the channel for individuals to be thrown out, as well as for parties and the government.

I think the weakness in the system is that the alternatives are very poor. You may argue that the government does this and that but come on, that is politics. The government must weaken the enemy or the opposition as much as possible. When (the opposition) comes to power, they will do the same thing.

How do you think Umno will fare in the general election?

I think it will be better for a few (reasons):

1) One opposition leader who came to my house said in a joking, yet not joking manner - 'Musa, I think we are going to have a problem because Mahathir is leaving. No more punching bag'. ( Laughs )

2) Abdullah is taking over. It is the Malaysian mentality - kasi chan lah (give him a break).

3) Abdullah also has a softer image. It has always been the issue of style. Even in the case of my quarrel with Dr Mahathir, it was over the manner in which things were done.

4) The alternatives offered by the opposition...they are messing it up again. The strongest possible party is Pas....Is it to be Islamic state or not? They said 'Yes, but we won't tell this at the federal level'. This sounds ridiculous.

The Malaysian electorate has become intelligent and they are able to analyse. If Umno really becomes ridiculous, they would reject us, as (they have done) in many cases. They make their own judgement.

5) The last point is the decades of development (that) have been successful in (maintaining) racial balance even though some have said that race is re-emerging as a factor again.

My contention is this: Race will re-emerge as a factor only if there is economic failure. I still subscribe to my theory of 'stomach-ism' or ' perut -ism'. Once the stomach is affected, then people start looking for scapegoats. Then you have racial problems.

At the moment, there is still growth. Before, we had a very small and compartmentalised middle-class. The Malays were government servants, the Chinese entrepreneurs and the Indians professionals. Now, as a result of National Economic Policy (NEP) plus overall development, there is a huge middle-class population cutting across racial lines.

They now have a common interest in stability. I maintain this has developed only in the last 20 years and that it has made it difficult for opposition political parties like PAS to win support.

Tomorrow: The future of Malay special rights