INTERVIEW As the man entrusted by PAS to speak on hudud, Mohd Amar Nik Abdullah insists that Kelantan will not turn into a Nigeria or Pakistan should hudud, the Islamic criminal law, be implemented.

 

Amar, the Kelantan deputy chief minister and PAS deputy state commissioner, added that there will be safeguards against potential overzealousness of the authorities.

 

He said PAS has conducted workshops to discuss the process of lobbing off limbs and the strict procedures needed to follow before the actual amputation takes place.

 

In an extensive interview with Malaysiakini last week, Amar argued that punishments meted under hudud are not inhumane, and that the aim of such laws is to “guide” the Kelantanese back “on the right path”.

 

Amar is of the view that the income disparity gap does not affect hudud as it will be imposed on both the rich and poor.

 

As hudud covers “theft, illicit sexual relations, accusations of illicit sex (without basis), alcohol consumption, apostasy, and highway robbery”, Amar said that other crimes such as drug trafficking will fall under ta’zir (at the discretion of the judge).

 

He said that the lesser weight given to women’s testimonies under hudud does not mean that perpetrators will get away with their crime, as they will still be charged under ta’zir and punishments can be even harsher.

 

Amar also noted that if corruption needs to be addressed under hudud, then it should be labelled as theft with the hands of the guilty lobbed off.

 

“All these labels of hudud being inhumane and barbaric are the opinion of the West and we Muslims must not be following the West on this.

 

“Chopping off hands is not inhumane - doctors chop off hands to save lives and in hudud, chopping off hands is to save the society.

 

“No one says that it is inhumane to cut off the limbs of the diabetic to save his or her life. In Islam, cutting off the hands of the thief is to save the whole society, whereby we have to sacrifice one person for the sake of majority.”

Amar also cited a number of anecdotes to justify the implementation of hudud in PAS-ruled Kelantan.

 

“In Islam, we advise the child before he is 10 to pray, but after 10 he can be beaten. Are we going to say that the Prophet was obsessed about beating?

 

“In the Prophet’s time, there had been fewer than 10 people in 10 years convicted for adultery. Less than one case per year. If we are obsessed with it, there would have been hundreds.

 

“In Malaysia, we have mandatory death sentence for drug pushers, but how many people have been sentenced to death? The severest punishment is death, but no one says it is cruel.”

 

‘One mistake in a hundred’

 

Amar also confirmed that Kelantan is not looking to form a separate police force to implement hudud and will use the existing police and prison system as well as the state courts.

 

While he conceded there may be “one mistake in a hundred” in the implementation of hudud, Amar said, without elaborating, that the government will own up to such injustices.

 

“The government will be responsible (if there are mistakes). There are possibilities of such scenarios.

 

“Of course, there will not be zero mistakes. For example, during the Prophet’s time, a man was convicted for adultery and he was to be stoned. The people stoned him but he managed to get away, yet they pursued him and he eventually died.

 

“The people then returned to the Prophet and they told him about it. The Prophet asked why they had pursued him. If he runs away, let him go, said the Prophet. Mistake will be there - maybe one in 100,” said Amar.

 

He said Kelantan had dispatched a number of religious officers to Pakistan and Nigeria to observe how hudud is implemented in the two countries.

 

“I, too, do not agree with the way they administer the laws there,” said Amar.

 

He cited the cases of the stoning of pregnant women for adultery in Pakistan. While he insisted that the punishment for such crimes is the same in Kelantan, the implementation would be different.

 

“Many have asked about the pregnant woman getting stoned under hudud in Pakistan. I myself do not agree. There are many weaknesses in terms of implementation in the hudud there.

 

“That is the problem of administration, the problem of implementation and enforcement. The judges here understand that and the verdict will be done with full evidence and witnesses.

“There is a committee before the case goes to court to see whether the person who committed the crime fulfils the requirements before he is charged under hudud. This process will ensure that there will be no injustice to society.”

 

According to Amar, the authorities in Pakistan were too overzealous to the point that they ignored the many procedures which they must follow when implementing hudud.

 

“When someone is pregnant, they (Pakistani authorities) do not check in detail whether the woman is pregnant due to rape or adultery.

 

“It is very difficult to prove one is pregnant through rape. In the religious books, there was one case where the girl who was accused of adultery and she claims she was raped while she slept like a log and did not know she was raped.

 

“They then tested her by carrying her around the house while she was sleeping and it was proven that she did sleep like a log. The case was dropped and she was discharged. Insha’Allah, these kinds of things (injustices) will not happen here.”

 

Hippocratic Oath

           

On the question of two sets of laws for Muslims and non-Muslims, the PAS leader noted that there is already the existence of civil and syariah courts in the country and this, he stressed, will be respected.

 

When asked how justice will be dispensed in cases where there are Muslims and non-Muslims involved in the same crime, Amar said non-Muslims will still be charged in civil courts.

 

On whether it is fair for a non-Muslim thief to get jail time while the Muslim partner in crime could have his hand lobbed off, Amar said that getting punished under hudud comes as part of the package of being Muslim.

 

But when told that born Muslims do not have a choice, Amar argued that this was like joining the army - one cannot choose to keep long hair.

 

Amar was also questioned on whether there are surgeons in Kelantan willing to disregard their Hippocratic Oath, which governs medical ethics, to help the state to amputate the hands of thieves.

 

He said: “We have, God willing. Of course, among the many, there will be some who will disagree.”

 

When asked to name one of the surgeons who have agreed to do so, he said, “We do not have it because we have yet to choose. If you ask now, I do not have names.

 

“After the bill is passed, we will do the necessary. Even the judges, we already have a list of those who can sit for such trials.

 

“The state government will pick them out from the list. When we choose judges, we will choose based on integrity,” Amar insisted.

 

THE MOHD AMAR INTERVIEW

                                                                                                                   

Part 1: On hudud, PAS likens Umno to a beckoning bride

 

Part 2: PAS man vows not to be overzealous on hudud

Part 3: Amar: Hudud more important than winning Putrajaya

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