exclusive Ex-premier Dr Mahathir Mohamad defends his plan to build failed steel plant Perwaja, which suffered colossal losses, in this final of a three-part series.

Malaysiakini: Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Nazri Abdul Aziz said in Parliament that the decision to build the half-bridge was made by you alone and the cabinet was not consulted. Is this true?

Mahathir: Well, I suppose they have short memories. People forget, they are getting old. They've probably forgotten. The thing is, why not answer what I said rather than try to make me out to be a demon? I'm not a devil or anything like that. I'm just making a criticism, because to me I'm not just an ex-prime minister, I'm also a citizen of this country.

I love this country, I think this country has fought well for independence, we have achieved independence. And when we surrender our right as an independent nation to somebody else, I think I am entitled to make criticisms, and now (they should) answer the points that I have raised. Don't just say 'well, he is a devil, therefore I shouldn't (answer)'. What is it that Nazri said on all (my) points? Tell me, on what points have I been wrong?

He has accused you of undermining the party and government.

No. I think even the party cannot... You know during my time, (former finance minister) Tengku Razaleigh (Hamzah) went against me, (former deputy premier) Musa (Hitam) went against me, (former deputy premier) Anwar (Ibrahim) went against me. You see? They split the party. Why? Because they thought I was wrong. If I was wrong, it's fine. But the party was split, and I had to put it together again.

You know, most of these people were against me. I brought them back. I brought (Foreign Minister) Syed Hamid (Albar) back. I brought (Prime Minister) Abdullah Ahmad Badawi back. I brought (former information minister) Abdul Kadir Sheikh Fadir back. I brought (Culture, Arts and Heritage Minister) Dr Rais Yatim back. I even made peace with Tengku Razaleigh. Is that called splitting the party?

But if I do something wrong, and nobody criticises me, I think the party is going to be taken as a personal instrument for doing what you like. I could not do what I liked. I had to explain to the cabinet, I had to explain to the public, I had to explain even to the press. You see? Sure, the best thing is - not to talk about splitting the party, not to talk about this ex-prime minister who should shut up. (Go) find out - why did you sell Agusta for two dollars? I would like to know. But none of what I asked was answered. Instead, it's only 'No, this thing is closed'.

And the AP (Approved Permit) issue. You go and give APs to two persons who came from your ministry. Why? No explanation. Just keep quiet. Over time, the thing will disappear.

So, I think even if you're a member, if the party goes wrong, you have a right to criticise. When the Tunku (Abdul Rahman) went wrong, I criticised, stuck out my neck to be chopped, and okay, I was dismissed from the party. That is a risk that I take. But I think that anything that is wrong, people must criticise. That doesn't mean you're splitting the party.

One question on Anwar Ibrahim. Both of you were together for so long. He was your apparent successor. Then things did not work out... You've made your stand clear on his alleged homosexuality based on the court case. The question is, are you 100 percent sure about this? Is there any room for reconciliation?

I was the prime minister and I had a responsibility not only for myself but for the country, not only during the time I was prime minister, but for the future of the country, and I had to make a decision. If I am convinced that somebody is not suitable, I have to make a decision. Even if he is a friend, or my own relative, it doesn't make any difference. If I find somebody who is not suitable, I would be failing in my duty in hesitating because, you know, he's a friend, I brought him up, things like that. Those things don't count to me.

You know, my enemies - I have brought back into the cabinet. I don't care about personal relations. I care about your ability. If you show the ability to serve the country, even though you are my enemy, I take you back. But if you are my bosom pal and all that, but you have done something that renders you unsuitable to run the country, I will have to take action.

So any possibility of reconciliation, given that you have taken back your enemies before?

If I have reconciliation, it may be interpreted as my belief that actually nothing happened, that it was wrong, my mistake, (that) my decision was wrong, that this thing did not happen. But to me, I was convinced, I made the decision, no matter what the people say.

I didn't ask the people to give him a black eye. I nearly lost the election because of that. But whether I'm going to lose the election, whether I was going to be expelled from the party, and things like that, what happens to me is not a matter of any relevance to me. What is important to me is that I do what I think is right. So if the Tunku is wrong, I tell the Tunku.

There were times... you would concede you made mistakes before.

What? Like?

Like Perwaja (Steel)

No. Perwaja was not a mistake. Perwaja was not a mistake. In fact, we got the plant for free because the Japanese failed to deliver the plant. They left the plant almost completed, I had to call in (steel maker) Hylsa from Mexico to do it, and it was done and it was running. But I couldn't help it if the management does not know how to run it.

So (former Perwaja managing director) Eric Chia was a mistake?

Eric Chia, at the time that he was appointed, nobody told me that it was a mistake. He had done very well with UMW. He was chosen on his record. But what he did after that, I can't be looking over his shoulder. If you find that he is in the wrong, charge him. I'm not stopping (you).

In fact, I was the one who negotiated with the Swiss government to allow the Swiss banks to give the information to our investigators. I didn't stop that. If he is wrong, punish him. If he is not wrong, don't go around telling people that this is a bad man. He wasn't a bad man when I started with him. How do I know what somebody is going to do after he takes over from me? I didn't know.

But then, we did lose money from Perwaja.

We lost money because of bad management. Not because Perwaja was a mistake. Perwaja was a good project, but if you don't know management, you'd lose money. Even if you cheat.

Vision 2020 - with this administration, do you think we will be achieving the objectives you had set out?

Well, if you read about the growth figures, it looks good. Six percent, five percent, it looks good. But some people feel that they are not getting the gravy. The gravy train is no more now, because the gravy was removed before the train left the station, so no more gravy train. So some people complain about not having gravy.

But otherwise, if they keep on growing at this rate, the stock market is doing well, et cetera, et cetera. OK-lah. But the growth must be sevent percent annually average to reach the 2020 target. But it is not growing at seven percent. At one time, it was growing at 8.5 percent until the (Asian) Financial Crisis. We got over the financial crisis, but lots of other things happened.

The (Sarawak) people are going to the polls (May 20). Do you think Abdul Taib Mahmud has been sitting in the chief minister's chair for too long? Twenty-six years, much longer than you.

Well, I suppose I am one of the few who made the decision to step down, and I stepped down not because anybody was pushing me, I just decided I should step down. But he (Taib Mahmud) has the right if he wants to stay. I mean, the people of Sarawak will have a chance to approve or disapprove.

But whatever it is, the people of Sarawak have a choice. We have a free system. You can vote. In this country, if you vote in the opposition, we don't thrown him into jail, or take him to the courts and charge him. In this country, you get elected, you can sit in Parliament, you get to sit in the Dewan Negeri (state assembly), or whatever. We are still a little bit more democratic than some people.

You once said that the chief minister's post in Sabah is too powerful. How about Sarawak?

People can decide. I mean, this is a free country. You are given the chance to vote. Of course, even in Singapore they can vote. The number of voters (for PAP) has come down, so maybe you can read something.

Any advice for Taib Mahmud now that he is sick?

No. I'm not advising anybody. I'm not qualified to advise anybody.

Apart from Proton.

Proton - I'm supposed to be advisor, but they never tell me anything. They only advise me that they have done this (or that). Who is the advisor? I'm not quite certain...

It's been three years since you stepped down, you don't appear to be slowing down. When are you going to slow down?

People don't allow me to slow down. You want to interview me. Why would you want to interview a has-been like me?

What's your secret to good health?

I'm writing a book on that (smiles). I will want to make some money out of it, advising you on how to look young.

Why don't you play golf?

Four hours hitting a small ball? I don't know how many years I have, or how many more months I have.

What's your favorite movie of all time?

Well, the only thing I liked before was 'Eight is Enough'. It is no longer (aired on TV).

How would you like Malaysians to remember you?

I think they should forget me.

Dr M: No patching up with Anwar

Part 1

Dr M: He made some wrong moves

Q&A: I'm disappointed, says Mahathir

Part 2

Dr M: PM's sons have no business with govt

Q&A: My criticisms are constructive