Malaysiakini: In a recent malaysiakini Readers Poll on the Human Rights Commission, out of 3,329 respondents, 57.1 percent said that they had no confidence in the commission while 27.4 percent opted for a "wait and see" stance. How can you reverse such negative opinions?

Musa: I have no intention of reversing any opinion on the commission. I'm not here to promote my personal popularity or the popularity of the commission. At the same time though, I must I appreciate very much polls like what you have conducted.

The fact there are polls, the fact that there is a lot of discussion, the fact that there are different opinions being expressed - for example, you gave us a "wish list" ("[#1] Musa, here's our wish-list [/#]", malaysiakini editorial, April 8) - that there are criticisms and pessimistic pre-judgment of the case, makes me feel good. For, after all, we need to have feedback.

We need to encourage people to put across their views because I'm a great believer of using feedback to better myself, and to better the commission. This is what democracy is all about.

As far as the negative viewpoint, I'm not surprised, simply because unfortunately in Malaysia there always has been scepticism, even bitter disappointment on a lot of things that have been going on.

I get the impression that the government seems to have a credibility problem overall. I'm not specifically talking about human rights. Everything that is being done by the government is being viewed with cynicism and scepticism. So when a commission of this nature is set up, everybody would tell you, "Oh, they are so bad. How can they even try to be good?" So I'm not surprised.

I accept these viewpoints as something of a challenge not only to me, but to the very idea that is being promoted with the formation of the commission. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not going out of my way to try to please because if I do, it means being a little less rational, preoccupied with "I want to please these people", so I might do things which are not necessary objective.

So what I plan to do, and I have already explained to the commission, "Don't worry about what people say, you're not here to please the government or the NGOs or those people who are bitter about the government. Let us just do our work in accordance with our belief and our conscience. And I'd tell you quite frankly that even among the members of the commission, some of them even doubt, 'Can we say this? Can we express this?'"

But at the end of the day - the first day of the commission's meeting - I'm very proud to say, all of them have the enthusiasm and confidence that we would be allowed to do work objectively for the interest of the job which is assigned by Parliament.

So I agree with the minority in the poll who said "wait and see". Judge us by the way we behave. InsyaAllah, we will be able to do our work. We don't want to gain votes or popularity. I hope that there will be reasonable satisfaction of our performance.

Malaysiakini: There has been much criticism that the commission is under the purview of the Foreign Ministry. Who exactly is the minister in charge of the commission?

Musa: The minister in charge, as of now, is the Minister of Foreign Affairs. But I would take this opportunity to explain the role of the Minister. Even when I look at it, I said, "My God, there doesn't seem to be any logic. We are now operating as the national commission of human rights. It is basically "national" and "domestic", yet it is under Foreign Affairs.

But this is because of historical circumstances, rather than a deliberation decision by the government.

If I may put aside my modesty, I'd like to claim responsibility for the Human Rights Commission. When I served as leader of the Malaysian delegation to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and then became chairman of the UN commission, I was convinced that Malaysia needed a national commission. It took me quite a few sessions with the leadership - I'll tell you frankly - with (Prime Minister) Dr Mahathir (Mohamad), to persuade him that he should agree and proceed to establish the commission.

To cut the story short, after a few sessions - you know, Dr Mahathir is not an easy man to convince - and once he is convinced, he said, "OK". It was brought up and with Cabinet approval, this led to the law being passed. All the work that led to formulation of the bill, which in the end became law, was done through the Foreign Ministry.

But by the time, it was ready, I was out of my job as the leader of the Malaysian UN delegation, so I left halfway. The law was formulated in my absence. But all the affairs related to the commission were in the hands of the Foreign Ministry.

Malaysiakini: Granted the historical reasons, but why not take the commission out of Foreign Affairs now?

Musa: There will come a day it would be handed over to another minister, but whom, I don't know. I better not name anyone in case (Foreign Minister) Syed Hamid Albar thinks I'm trying to take the work from him, or I favour one over the other.

Malaysiakini: But surely, this shouldn't be taken in terms of personality but in terms of the ministry...

Musa: Exactly. Under the present circumstances, they (the ministers) are very sensitive and I'm very sensitive with the political goings-on in Umno politics. Please take in the light-hearted manner. But yes, I believe what you're saying. It is the ministry. Indeed, I was broaching the idea (of moving the commission out of Foreign Affairs) but I did not want to push it.

Malaysiakini: Why?

Musa: Why bother about who is in charge? Basically whoever is the minister is more of a liaison person, and questions in Parliament may be answered by him. What is important is being effective.

Malaysiakini: There was talk that the commission head would be given ministerial status. What went wrong?

Musa: Let me tell you this frankly. In 1990, I was appointed the special envoy to the UN by the PM and I was given so-called ministerial status. It was more for protocol purposes rather than anything. And then I was appointed to lead the Malaysian delegation to the UN, I was given ministerial status. I do now hold ministerial status. I serve the Commonwealth Ministers Action Group.

In the course of discussion with Syed Hamid about the problem of civil servants not looking up to the commission, Syed Hamid volunteered and said, "OK, I'd bring it up to the PM."

I said, "No, don't, I'd bring it up".

He said, "Never mind, let me."

He brought it up, and the PM said okay, he would bring it to the Cabinet. He brought it up to the Cabinet on this issue, the Cabinet did not agree. It was as simple as that. There was no acrimony, there was no struggle.

Malaysiakini: But what were the arguments against giving ministerial status?

Musa: I don't think there was too much argument. You know, of all ministers, suddenly there is one who is out of it said, "I want ministerial status".

I did not demand ministerial status. As you can see, now I have accepted it in good humour. I think the job is more serious than the status of it. Status is what ones make of himself, not what others think. No big deal. If I want to make an issue of it, I'd said, "Oh, no ministerial status, I won't serve."

Malaysiakini: What do you hope to achieve in meeting human rights NGOs Suaram, Hakam and Aliran on May 15?

Musa: One of the complaints against the commission is that, "Well, these personalities in the commission, who are they? Why are those activists in the NGOs and in human rights issues being appointed. This is typical government attitude. They do not want them. They are the ones logically who should have been appointed."

My light-hearted argument is this: "If you want them, there is not enough in the hall. They are so many of them."

So what to do? Simple. There are so many NGOs, why don't we adopt of a system of consultation and dialogue? It is based on this principle of wanting those who are allegedly kept out, yet valuing their contribution, that we are adopting this system of dialogue.

How do we go about it? Of course, we cannot invite 20 NGOs to come. We are now listing the NGOs into groups, even political parties, and decide that we have to meet them sooner or later. Since Suaram, Hakam and Aliran seem to be in the forefront of human rights, we talk to them first.

Don't forget that human rights it not only those with political orientation which make people passionate and emotional about things. These are the more difficult ones. We thought we will deal with the more difficult ones, then we will look at womens' rights, children rights, the rights of the handicapped, rights of workers, etc.

And we are inviting those whom we do not know to write to us. And please be patient, your turn will come, I hope. I insist that we must meet all of them. So it will take some time.

Since we decided on the three (Suaram, Hakam and Aliran), we will discuss the Black 14 demonstration. We would also like to meet the police two weeks after this meeting.