Interview

Terengganu Mentri Besar Abdul Hadi Awang in an exclusive interview with malaysiakini talks about the current challenges he faces in governing the state that the opposition party PAS (of which he is deputy president) wrested from Barisan Nasional in the 1999 general elections.

Malaysiakini: What type of an 'Islamic state' will be implemented in Terengganu?

An 'Islamic state' as required by Islam has been established 15 centuries ago. The other ideologies have yet to come up with a model state of their own but Islam has already built a model state with a mixed community of different races and different religions.

Faraway colonies were then allowed to be ruled by those who are not only guided by the worldly laws but also guided spiritually with divine judgment for their rights and wrongs.

Although there may be people who escape from the Anti-Corruption Agency here and go unpunished, in an Islamic state, one believes they will not escape from God's punishment. This is because, in an Islamic state, judgment is not only in this world but also in the hereafter where the spiritual aspect will teach the authorities to truly discharge their duties.

How long will it take before an 'Islamic state' is implemented fully in Terengganu?

Since Barisan Nasional immediately took over Terengganu from the British, it is not easy for us to make changes in the nearly two or three years.

Nevertheless, I feel the changes that did take place have been much faster than expected and the people's response to the changes we have proposed have been interesting.

However, we have already taken steps to introduce the concept of an 'Islamic state'. For example, in the villages, the gotong-royong (community) concept has been introduced to complete projects in their villages. Previously, the village committees that were under the control of Umno would take over these projects and pocket the tenders.

We cannot spend too much and those who 'steal' allowances and do not do their work properly are closely monitored, especially in the state civil service.

Why is there widespread dishonesty and insincerity among the state civil service?

This is due to the inherited attitude from BN - those at the top had set an example to the lower ones, to steal time and become opportunists. When we took over, the executive council members who overlook the state companies do not take allowances as managers.

We ourselves lead by example by cutting expenditure and being thrifty. We do not take hosuing allowances and I myself am not so particular in claiming for my travelling and other expenses.

What are hudud laws?

Hudud is only one aspect of the Islamic criminal law. The Islamic criminal law is divided into three. One is qisas , where the victim is given the right to forgive the accused. Second is hudud , which is about the right of God on matters of morality, the public, stealing, adultery, accusing others of adultery and drinking alcohol. Only six issues are included under hudud . Hudud literally means limits.

The third aspect is takzir , which are penalties determined by the judge.

Could you please explain how hudud should be carried out if implemented?

The punishment by hudud is more for educational purposes. For example, the severing of a hand. This cannot be done just like that. The one who is punishing has to first look at the situation of the thief did he steal because he was not earning enough?

The relation between the thief and the victim must be known. If they are both related, such as father and son, hudud cannot be implemented. And the judge must also check whether the thief has a right to what he stole. If it is government property, hudud cannot be carried out. This is because the thief, as part of the public, has a right to government property as well.

Then we have to check what he had actually stolen, its price and where it was hidden. The condition of the community must also be looked at. If the country is at war or there is an economic fallout, then hudud cannot be carried out.

The witness and the accused must be brought to trial at the same time. The witness must be just, honest and has not committed any cardinal sin. Islam encourages the accused to be forgiven and for the thief to repent. A judge must endeavour to find a way to release the accused from hudud , not try to nail him whatever way possible. That must never be. It is Islam's belief that it is better to have released a thief who has wronged rather than to have convicted an innocent man. Hudud is preventive and designed to create fear. Before hudud is even carried out, people are already afraid to commit crimes.

Which country has already implemented hudud and can be taken as a model?

Iran dan Arab Saudi. There, it is difficult to find even 10 cases of theft, but in our country there are thousands of cases. This is because psychologically, the people there are afraid to commit crimes. So, it is difficult to implement hudud .

We should not think that just because there are 40,000 thieves in the country today, when hudud comes into effect, we will have amputated 40,000 people. We should look at it this way. When hudud is implemented, 40,000 thieves would quit stealing.

Do you think the people of Terengganu can accept hudud ?

Before the British came, hudud has already been implemented as Terengganu then was an Islamic state with the syariah law as their constitution. This is why PAS could easily find a base in Terengganu. However, due to the betrayal of democracy by Umno, PAS was defeated in the state.

We won Terengganu with such incredible strength. Today, those who have studied hudud from the intellectual aspect accept it.

When the former Lord Justice Tun Salleh Abas was involved in drawing up the criminal laws of Kelantan, he said that the judges would have more rest if hudud was implemented. He said that the courts would convene rarely as there will be lesser people committing crimes. Today, there is a backlog of cases in the courts.

If Terengganu were to become an Islamic state, would it be like another Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban, or another Iran, or another Saudi Arabia?

The source and guide of an Islamic state is not Iran or the Taliban, but based on the Quran and Hadith (Prophet's examples). The environment of those countries are different from ours and the communities' characters are also different. We have to be aware of that. Furthermore, there, the population there is almost 100-percent Muslim, while we have non-Muslims. So, it is defnitely different. Terengganu is already drawing up the laws and the drafts are halfway done.

How would you ensure that the rights of the non-Muslims would not be affected? I have gone to meet them, in their own villages, and listen to their complaints. I do not depend on the few MCA top people who do not know what is happening on the ground. Since I became the CM, I have held three dialogues with the non-Muslims. I also receive visits from the non-Muslims.

Under the BN, selling of pork and rearing of pigs were not allowed. Under the PAS rule, it is otherwise. Is this a liberal move to fish votes?

It has nothing to do with being liberal. We are merely allowing them their rights. In an Islamic state, we have to allow the non-Muslims the right to follow their religion and culture, provided it does not disturb the others. They have to ensure that it does not disturb others. That is the rule.

For example, when BN was in power, they had changed the name of Jalan Kampung Cina to Jalan Bandar. The Chinese community asked me to revert to the old name. I agreed to do so.

Before, the town council charges RM600 assesment tax for the archway to Chinatown it was too much. They asked me to scrap it, I scrapped it. If the Muslims are given amenities, the non-Muslims should enjoy the same benefits. For example, when we did away with assessment tax, many Chinese who live in the town area also enjoyed the benefit.

When the federal government stopped the royalty payments, what were the main problems that arose?

The main problem was how to continue with the incomplete infrastructure projects. There are still some people who have yet to receive piped water and electricity supply, even though they may be living right next to the hydroelectric dam in Kenyir.

Those in fishing and agriculture have to be assisted. They have been forgotten for 20 years although there was about a billion ringgit in royalty payments to the state government then. Even then, the state was burdened with debts amounting to RM700 million.

We have only started to restructure with a budget that caters for the necessities of the people. That was at the early stage when we received a part of the royalty in February 2000. On receiving the sun, we allocated more to the destitute, the mosque officials and allowances for the village committee members. This (increase of allocations) was not done during BN's 20 years.

Why do you think the federal government retracted the royalty from the state government?

They (BN) are drowning now and will do anything, including hijacking the royalty even if they are going against the agreement, an act which is against the moral and manners of a civilised country.

Would the state government continue to fight for the royalty, even though the federal government had said that it is not your right?

We will pursue the royalty issue. We have filed it in court. We should have received a reply but up till today, we have yet to receive any.

Without royalty, how does the Terengganu government intend to earn revenue?

First of all, we have to be thrifty. We have also endorsed land for agriculture and housing, whereby we receive a premium for that endorsement. The premium is cheaper than if they have to buy the land. The state companies which earn profits also provide revenue to the state government. We also earn revenue from logging.

The previous government neglected the logging revenue and much of this revenue was pocketed or lost. With effective management, the returns from logging have increased. We are also making use of the minerals we have in the state.

What other minerals does the state have that can be profitably mined?

We have found gold in a few places in Terengganu, such as Dungun, Marang and Besut. We will be mining by involving the people. The traditional mining method will provide job opportunities to the people while the government will use heavy machinery that will not involve the people. The people will only pan.

The people's share will be 60 percent and the government's share 40 percent. In fact, the people were already happy with our initial suggestion of 60 percent for the government.

Will the federal government be able to take over the gold mining returns, as they did the petroleum royalty?

According to the law, the gold is the right of the state 100 percent. Initially, the petroleum, offshore and inland, was also 100 percent the property of the state government. But a contract was sealed to ensure the state government surrenders the petroleum obtained inland to Petronas and in return Petronas will pay five percent royalty, regardless of whether the petroleum was mined offshore or inland. That five percent was the compensation. This only has to do with petroleum and no other minerals.

The alternative ways of getting revenue which you just mentioned might take time. What are the ways to earn immediate revenue?

To care for the needs of the people who are involved in accidents, disasters and as such, we have set up a fund called the Darul Iman Fund, which has now collected RM4 million. This sum came from the state companies and state exco officials who donated their one-month salary. There are also donations from individuals. Till today, the government has managed to to collect zakat (tithe) amounting to RM20 million, an amount more than that of RM11 million in 1999. This year, it looks like we will be able to collect more than that.

Is the zakat kept in banks to gain interest, as done by other states?

No, that we have to correct. Interests are withdrawn and spent on improving the welfare of the people. That is according to the laws of Islam, to repent from gaining interest.The zakat is moved to a current account. Only the states of Kelantan and Terengganu do not use the zakat money to gain interests in banks.

In what ways does the state government assist the fishermen, farmers and small businessmen?

The fishermen and farmers are considered the very poor. We have increased the allocations for the very poor. We also provide entrepreneurial assistance. The increase of allocation was from the half royalty that we received early last year. However, the hijacking of the royalty has prevented us from carrying out programmes to assist the very poor.

Did the federal government channel any wang ehsan (goodwill payment) to the very poor as they have promised and announced?

Even though Umno had publicised that the money would channelled to those who are in need, the old ways have returned - the Umno leaders at the lower levels have used this money for themselves and their cronies. Even if it reaches those in need, that is only a part of it. There have been so many complaints and it has actually created a situation which put the people on our side.