Businessman Loh Mui Fah, 58, the other man at the centre of the Lingam tape controversy, tells Malaysiakini that he was a reluctant witness to the royal commission in this second part of an exclusive interview.

Click here for part one .

Malaysiakini: You mentioned about this particular incident where you were ‘intercepted’ (by ACA officers).

Loh Mui Fun: Going a little bit backward. Confirmed - they find me (going into my apartment) in and out of the day, especially at night.

Who were they?

These people came in a car, watching us. If a car was parked nearby, you could see the engine was on, people sitting there. You could see people pointing at you, looking at you (with) it could be camera, it could be those equipment that could hear you talking - I do not know, I’m just speculating. They were there until middle of the night.

I stay in the apartment. Later on, the security (people) confirmed that people came in - they came in one car, two cars, always four, five people. And later on, the ACA confirmed that there were agents trailing us.

Their agents?

They said, ya, of course, ‘we were eyeing out...’ They never explained why. When I said, it was not necessary because I offered (to talk but) nobody came to me. Why do you want to waste government money?

Then came another occasion. People came to my office, (and) simultaneously they sent another team to my house, looking for me. They said, ‘he was not there’. Then in the house, they wanted to take my younger son away. The whole morning, he refused to open the gate and the door.

Was that harassment?

I personal wouldn’t said that this was harassment. But this was harassment to my son. He had nothing to do with this.

This house is the same apartment you were talking about?

Ya, ya. They insisted in taking him away. For what? Then came another incident when I was travelling to Singapore, I was intercepted in Malacca.

This was in your car?

No, I was travelling, then I stopped... I already suspected (of being followed), so we dropped by at a friend’s tea shop. Soon after we went in, two person came, they said, ‘you’re wanted by us’. They identified themselves as ACA officers. I had their names. They wanted me to go with them to give a statement.

I said, ‘I offer (to cooperate) but don’t come at a time when I have other engagements. And you cannot, at this time, expect me to turn back to go, to suit your convenience’. I was very insistence, very tough. I said, ‘no way, you’re talking to the wrong person with this kind of attitude’.

They said, ‘since you cannot do this, you better to explain to my boss’. So they called their boss. And to their boss, I said, ‘in the morning, why can’t you just asked me don’t leave KL’, and trailing me all the way here. Why? Government funds should not be spent in such a manner.

(I said) I offered (to talk). ‘Ah, you offered?’ Yes.

Then what did he said?

He said, ‘oh’. I said, ‘now I’m warning you, don’t give me any problem, otherwise I’d make big publicity on this issue’. Then he said, ‘OK, OK, when?’

Who was this person you talked to?

He is probably from the (ACA) headquarters.

Then what happened?

Then they wanted me to come back and made myself available at their office. So I called them (later) and said, ‘if you want to talk to me, probably the best place will be the royal commission of inquiry since it was set up’.

I asked for clarification the difference between ACA and the royal panel of inquiry - whether or not it is an overlapping job. Then he said, ‘the royal commission has no facilities to order an investigation’.

Have you been called by the royal commission to appear (before it)?

So far not yet.

Have you have any idea how the ACA knew who you were?

I think probably VK Lingam has recalled who he was talking to, who was in the house during the time because this was not an occasion you see a person for a few minutes, this was one whole evening.

Surely, if ever he had given statement before, as I have read in the newspaper, to the ACA or whatever investigating authority, he must have been asked the question, ‘who do you think the other party is?’ And I wouldn’t be surprised that he might have identified us. That’s why as I said earlier on, we felt already people were keeping (an eye) on us even as far back a few months ago.

If the ACA wants to get the truth from you, they could have made an appointment and talk to you.

That’s what I said. That’s what I told them. If you look at the letter - the letter was written more than two months ago.

This was the letter to PM (Abdullah Ahmad Badawi).

To the PM. [See the letter]

So do you considered that as a harassment?

Personally, I wouldn’t use the word ‘harassment’. But I feel they could have been more open, more straightforward to come to you and said, ‘we believe you’re the person, is there anything you can help with this investigation’. So simple.

I can tell you this, I’m not happy with many government agencies - the way they have treated me.

This is not related to the...

Not related to this issue.

So you have been harassed before...

Oh, so many times. I’m a ‘harassment proofed’. I fought the police like nobody’s business.

Let’s go back to the issue with the ACA investigation. Do you think they were interested in investigating the case or trying to keep you quiet?

I can’t speculate. Otherwise, they would accused me of being an opposition. This word commonly seen in the newspaper. When you say anything that they don’t like, (they said) you behave as an opposition, which I’m not. So I don’t want to speculate on that.

But I feel they may want a statement from me unprepared - (an) unprepared statement. I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know much about which law may give me protection, so that’s why I have seek the advice of a lawyer as to how to handle this situation because the issue has blown out to this magnitude.

And if some of the leaders are not happy about the whole of this, I’d be termed as somebody that they don’t like - like the opposition. I do not want to be in that situation.

So the ACA may not want to interview you at your own terms (with your lawyer there), but to get an...

An unprepared statement.

Were you shocked by what you heard (during Lingam’s conversation on the phone)?

Probably, I was amused by it.

You were amused because you expected that.

I’ve heard many lawyers who have been saying that there is not enough transparency in the judicial system and sometimes things don’t turn out as they should be. I feel that it was one of those things.

Were you aware that VK Lingam had such a reputation at that time?

I think it had been coming ... without targeting at him.

So what’s next now?

I’ve been actually encouraged to go public with this thing for my own security sake, for my own protection. But I have been weighting the pros and cons that in the event that I’ve been targeted as being an opposition and having heard so much about the controversy about the judicial system, and having personally encountered so many of these problems that lawyers said, ‘I don’t understand why it turned out this way’ ... I have definitely been a bit cautious.

Why did you not come out earlier?

That I wasn’t given any assurance about protection, about my safety. I have been getting advice from independent lawyers... After hearing all these advices, they told me that the best is to go public so that your security is at least be a little more certain.

Do you still fear for your life?

At least, I have been threatened by all these calls before. Even if there is government agency who assures me (of my security), I wouldn’t take it for granted having seen so many crimes being committed by law enforcement officers. Nothing is for sure.

And still you’re going public.

Well, going public, that would be the best option I have at hand...

Are you still in touch with Lingam?

He wrote ... many letters. He said, ‘please come to my office for a discussion’.

This was after the tape was released.

Yes, I told him that I’ve been advised by my lawyer that going to your office for a meeting is not seen as (an) independent (place). I said if you want to be something more independent, you can suggest to me, and he never reply.

So he has not spoken to you on the phone or...

No, no. I do not know. I don’t think he has called me. But even if he had called me, I could be accused of maybe ‘you’re blackmailing me’. So the best is, as being advised by the lawyers, you better don’t speak to him.

Do you know who revealed the tape to the opposition?

I honestly do not know, and I am bothered to find out.

But would agree that the clip actually came from your house or office.

When I’m fighting one very dishonest lawyer ... and I have evidence of what wrong he has committed ... I have to show (another) lawyer what had taken place. And some of the things are being seen by my lawyer in charge of the case. So the speculation could go even to some of the lawyers and to the people who received it...

So it could have come from your staff, your lawyers, your son...

It could be even my son. ‘Eh, you want to have a look at it’. Sometimes, you know, young friends - ‘eh, this thing could be interesting, just like those sex clips’. Everybody passes it around...

How old is your son?

He is now 30-plus.

Have you spoken to opposition party PKR after the clip was revealed?

I must admit that I have been approached, (they) wanted my support because there’s no better witness that... (and) I can see why. I think everybody would be coming to me, be it the investigating authority, of course now the royal commission, earlier on, the panel, the ACA. What good if I’m not there. They can said, ‘who is the crook?’ There’s only one person to prove that, and it’s me.

At what point did PKR approached you - was it before they released the clip or after they released the clip?

I can’t quite remember because I’m in and out of the country. I don’t know when exactly they released the clip. But somehow, I was approached, (they) ask for my cooperation (and that) they would appreciate if I can support the clip.

To be quite honest, I was quite reluctant.

You reluctantly support them?

I was quite reluctant and that was the reason why the second clip did not surface until much later. I still didn’t agree, but probably they already have the thing whether or not I agree, somehow when you’re summoned, subpoenaed, you have to surface.

So if just like ACA asked me, can I refuse? I cannot possibly refuse. Of course, I’m willing to cooperate, but I cannot, I have no right to refuse a government investigation.

So you’re willing to go before the royal commission if you’re called.

Ya, as a good citizen ... I think for public interest, maybe I should just cooperate and it is up to the commission to find their own answer ... because the content has nothing to do with me, except that I’m a witness to the content.

And you will make yourself available for the next two weeks...

I hope that it (would not be) as long as that because what you want me to say is whether or not you actually witnessed this thing. ‘Were you there?’ Yes . ‘Did you overhear this thing?’ I can’t denied, because I even asked a question ‘who he was talking to’. I (can) basically confirmed what you can see in the clip.

So you were the person who asked the question in the second part of the clip?

Yes.

You have no idea your son was videotaping the whole thing?

Not at the time.

You only discovered it only after the clip was released.

Yes.

But there is a possibility that PKR actually approached you before the clip was released.

I don’t think so. Because you see, I did not consent to the release. Of course, first of all, I did not know. Even if I knew, I would not consent to it so definitely I did not release the clip to them.

Why were you reluctant?

For a very simple, and maybe a stupid reason - and not a reason at all. Why you get yourself ... coming to such a controversial issue... I don’t like to be in the limelight that you’re subject to criticism, attack, more so, if it is by the government, targeting you as an opposition element. This is something I don’t like.

You see, life can be extremely difficult if you are ever being termed as an opposition element so you don’t want to be (put in a) difficult (situation) and definitely you don’t want your life threatened. I have a nice family. My children have been harassed all the time, have been prejudiced, have been discriminated against, it is not everybody’s wish.

So you told PKR what actually happened that night at VK Lingam’s house?

No... they were very fast in identifying me ... And they asked me to back up this thing. To be quite frank, I know (PKR de facto leader) Anwar (Ibrahim)... Not to forget, Anwar was a deputy prime minister and Umno deputy president.

They were very fast in identifying me being the person in the clip. And they asked me to support, to back up this thing. And I said, ‘please, can you leave me alone’. You know the second part came out so many months later, you know why? I said no.

In fact, it is the ACA who forced me into the picture.

How so?

Three months later (after the clip was exposed), the ACA came into the picture. So who is actually forcing me to come out? It is not Keadilan, it is actually the ACA.

Because of their...

Trailing me ... they wanted me. Cornering me until I have to surface.

So you want the harassment stopped.

Yes, I want this stopped and I want some peace...

By coming out and revealing yourself, you’re not trying to protect your son...

Basically, they (ACA) approached me, they stopped me, intercepted me... I have no choice. I actually have no choice. They have also harassed my second son, and wanted to take my younger son away. If the other son doesn’t come back (from Shanghai, China), he (second son) would be harassed, they would take him away.

Have you asked your elder son that he actually revealed...

When I told him that his younger brother was being harassed, he was shouting on the phone, ‘how can they do this to my brother?’. He wanted to released a press statement... I told him if you do that, definitely you (would be considered) an opposition. That’s why I stopped him from doing that. He wanted to talk to the overseas press.

Is he willing to come back to testify?

He has agreed... At least, he can put a stop to the harassment of his brother.

Neither you or your son released the clip?

I can only speak for myself.

You did not ask your son whether he was the person who released the clip?

No.

Part 1: My son took the Lingam tape