Malaysiakini : When you meet with the police, what are you going to tell them?

Musa : Let us listen to them. I don't think they will be negative as people perceived them to be. You know, there is always the idea that police means pukul.

Malaysiakini : But there are indeed problems with our police force.

Musa : There is always a problem with the police force anywhere in the world, in the US, Russia, Thailand, or the Philippines. It is the reality because they are an enforcement agency. As a former home affairs minister, I understand. They act in accordance with a broad principle. The way they act, there are certain realities involved. But that's as far as I'm prepared to go with you. There is no need for pre-judgement.

The whole point of the exercise is that even with the things which you said, we will say to them. Let us try to sort it out.

There is need to create an understanding and try t test our theories about how to overcome this problem of alleged mistreatment by the police and alleged misbehaviour of the people who have been involved in demonstrations.

In the final analysis, after meeting them, we need to meet with the decision makers. There will come a time when we will have a dialogue with the political leadership.

Malaysiakini : Black 14 is one issue, but there are other issues involving the police - custodial violence, torture, indiscriminate shootings.

Musa : In the course of our discussion, we will talk about all these. This is genuine, in the sense of the image and reality of what they really did or did not do. They will have their own explanation, I hope. It's not a trial, not an accusation session.

It is very important that we start with the right framework on both sides. All these problems which you raised, we will tell them, "This is the problem, what do you think of it, how do you overcome it?"

And in so far as investigative powers, we do have investigative powers conferred onto us by the law. The first meeting we had was related to the Black 14 demonstration. There were three issues. One was the right to assembly. Two was (regarding) arrests. Three was (regarding) allegations of mistreatment. We say that we will look at the allegations of mistreatment. The Harun Hashim sub-group will look into this.

But we don't look into the first two. Both in terms of normal law, there is such a thing as sub- judice. The first two are before the courts. The third one is a new allegation. There is no court case. The Act referring to the Human Rights Commission specifically said that where an issue is before the court of law, you don't take it up.

Some people said, "Hah, look at them, they are takutlah. They are scared-lah".

I must start with the goodness of man. I know there are cynics here. I must start on the assumption that you intend to be good, we intend to be good. Only then, can we move forward.

Malaysiakini : The police could ensure that the commission cannot investigate certain cases by bringing them to court.

Musa : This is an unnecessary prediction. There might be political parties or individuals who are accused of human rights violations. They could also institute court proceedings to prevent investigations. The other side can do the same thing.

Malaysiakini : But wouldn't that hamper the work of the commission?

Musa : If that does happen, it is not in our hands. The law clearly states that. But I just want to say that all sides can do the same. It is something which I don't think will happen deliberately. That conspiracy theory can work on both sides, and all parties concerned.

Malaysiakini : You really have your work cut out. There will be pressures from many different groups.

Musa : There is a group of people who are politicians. They are the most difficult people, because they have a political agenda, that is to win votes and power, so it is difficult to accept them at face value. They are the ones who create all the emotions. I know that they will condemn me for saying it, but as an ex-politician, don't ask me further about that.

Then there are the NGOs. I'd like to think that the NGOs are genuine. There will also be leaders who like publicity, but let's put that aside. NGOs exist for good reasons. The NGOs, I think, can play a very constructive role.

Then, you have those who are utterly disillusioned for A, B or C reasons, and who would find absolutely nothing good that the government is doing. I will only say this: I sympathise with them.

Then the last are the ordinary people. They are the most important group. They are the ones who would be our main concern in terms of promoting human rights. They are the ones who need to be sensitised, to be made aware, to be educated what their rights would be, and they are the ones who need to be continuously reminded that there is such a thing in life called human dignity.

From there, when they select leaders, they could demand those only who treat others with dignity to be their representatives. Only then democracy can flower. Again, these are theories.

Malaysiakini : The commission is expected to receive an avalanche of complaints. What are your priorities?

Musa : There are obvious things like people who are beaten up into a pulp. There is the long-term goal of the commission - education, awareness. There is a short-term one, which deals with current political interests relating social issues, like treatment of women, minorities, ethnic groups, children. Then there is the day-to-day interests, arrests that take place today or tonight. So we will make our judgement and assessment based on this.

We have set up a number of sub-groups in the commission. There is a group which assists the government in identifying laws and regulations that are not in conformity with human rights. The second is to identify treaties and conventions which we have not signed. The third one is to educate. And the fourth one, a very exciting one. That's the one that will deal with the day-to-day matters. Actually a lot of people are enthusiastic about this group.

Malaysiakini : That's because there is a sense of urgency...

Musa : Yes, that's good. If you think these guys are a bunch of people who are yesmen, I'd imagine most of them would say, "No, no, no, I'd deal with education. Much easier." I just received a phone call from someone who said, "Can I also be a member of this group?" Sure, from six now it becomes seven, out of 13 of us.

Malaysiakini : There have been complaints about the choice of commission members.

Musa : There are three ex-judges. The reason why three ex-judges are necessary is there will be a lot of procedures that require inquiries. I told them any inquiry will be headed by one of the three of them.

Then the other members. There have been lots of questions. Why not that fellow? He has done this and that. I accept it in my stride.

I've got a professor of law, who is very knowledgeable about Syariah law. I would have to call on her for her expertise. Another woman is an expert in children as well as women affairs and who is academically prominent. Then there is another who is youngist - I'm not saying younger - who is very vocal on the rights and treatment of Muslim women. And she speaks her mind.

I have an ex-minister who I think could deal a lot relating to labour and immigrants. As far as I know he is completely out of active politics, and I'm told, quite a well-respected man.

I have an ex-opposition man, who is known as a social activist. There are lots of criticisms, "Oh, you know that he does this." Sure, but he has been dealing with drug issues, social problems of youth. I'm happy that he is there.

I have the president of a consumer association. There are people who dislike him, there are people who like him. But the fact is that he is always talking about the price of chicken and others. That's a basic human right. Consumerism is a very important part of human rights.

I have an ex-director general of forestry. He is active internationally on environment issues. He is exposed to international ideas on the environment. I have someone from Sarawak who is a medical doctor who belongs to a tribal minority. And I have somebody from Sabah, admittably he is an ex-civil servant, but he also belongs to the Kadazan group.

So I think it is a good balance we got here. And the idea of not having 20 - full membership - is that perhaps there is room for others as we go along.

Malaysiakini : When will the people see the impact of the commission?

Musa : I don't know. We will just go on based on the principles I have said. The people will make their own judgement. Every year we will have to table a report to the Parliament. You can look at the report.

Malaysiakini : What recommendations will the report include?

Musa : I'm not saying anything right now. We will report to the Parliament, meaning, we will report to the people. It will be a public document. I really feel that some of the cynicism of the commission can be overcome. Not all.