Azmin Ali played a key role in forming Parti Keadilan Nasional in 1999 and saw through its merger with Parti Rakyat Malaysia (PRM) in 2003 to form Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR).

Yet colleagues still view him as former deputy premier Anwar Ibrahim's private secretary - and it obviously rankles.

In a 90-minute interview, Azmin - now PKR vice-president - reveals that he is not being recognised as a leader in his own right and says this is hindering his attempts to "grow politically".

Azmin also explains his "tough decision" not to contest the deputy presidency as he originally intended or to defend his post in the upcoming party election.

Never far from controversy, he further responds to allegations including the claim that he practises money politics and 'blocks' PKR leaders from becoming close to party adviser Anwar.

Malaysiakini: Why are you pulling out of the nominations for the deputy president's post?

Azmin : I would like to narrate the background because I don't like my statement to cause any misunderstanding within the party. One must understand that the dynamics at the divisional level were prompted by the announcement of (deputy president) Syed Husin Ali to retire, at the last party congress in Penang (in September 2006). From that moment, the collective wisdom of the party was to manage the succession issue in a democratic and orderly manner.

I have been approached by members, divisional leaders, grassroots members and activists asking me to (take on the) position of deputy president. Many of my supporters are trying to convince me that I should accept the responsibility. Since the beginning of our division annual general meeting in early February, I have received very encouraging response from divisions in all states including Sabah and Sarawak. I thank them for the overwhelming support. I believe the support reflects their confidence and appreciation of my work in building the party since its inception in 1999.

The scenario changed following the announcement by Syed Husin during the (party's) retreat in February this year, expressing his desire to defend his post. This made me reflect on the situation. I consulted my supporters, divisional leaders and colleagues.

I must say, with all sincerity, until this morning, I am still under tremendous pressure from leaders and supporters to join the race. They argue that a contest would be healthy and positive for the party. Furthermore it is our conviction that PKR is built on the principle of democracy and this principle must be upheld within the party. The democratic process is not in any way divisive and it will not cause disunity.

I strongly believe PKR is strong and mature enough to manage the democratic process. Managing our internal democracy would enhance our image among the rakyat and increase confidence in us in participating in the next general election. But having said that, I have great respect for Syed Husin as a person, a scholar and a political leader who has shown his commitment for human rights and struggle for social justice. Those qualities (in him) prompted me to work very hard as a prime mover in the merger of PRM and Parti Keadilan Nasional. There were casualties in the process but we believed in it...

'Casualties' as in those who didn't secure their original post after the merger?

Not only those who failed to get posts but also those who didn't agree with the merger. I had to convince them. I worked very hard to support the merger even though I could sense there would be some casualties in the process. But it was my conviction at the time, so I supported the merger because of the qualities in Syed Husin.

With the latest announcement by Syed Husin - not only in his ( malaysiakini ) interview but during the last party retreat in Kuala Lumpur - I have had to respond positively. After a process of consultation and meetings, I have decided not to contest the post of deputy president or any other post during the party election in May. This has been a tough decision for me, but I promise to work as a team-member to continue building the party.

Did you consult the party adviser (Anwar) and president (Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail)?

I consulted the party members and divisional leader. In making this very difficult decision, I could not spurn the hopes of members. I had to consult them, talk to them, listen to them and convince them about what is the best for the party. We have to move on as a team to continue building the party and to prepare it for the next general election.

What do you mean by "what's best for the party"? Are you saying you're not the best candidate for the deputy presidency?

No. Despite the very encouraging support in terms of nominations from all the states, I have great respect for Syed Husin for his commitment and convictions. The nominations (for me) came in because of (Syed Husin's) announcement last year that he was not seeking re-election.

Now I have to explain to the members that Syed Husin has agreed to continue his service in the leadership of the party and we should support him. I personally made this announcement today (March 21) so that the nominations that will take place this weekend and the next will see overwhelming support for Syed Husin. I personally will call my colleagues at the grassroots level to give their support to him.

We can sense your disappointment over this. In your speech at the Gombak division meeting (in late February), you said you had no worries about your nomination as Syed Husin had clearly stated that he wants to retire.

It is not a matter of disappointment. In politics, we have to make decisions based on consensus. I may want to contest the post, I may want to go higher but at the same time, my priority is to make sure the party is united and we set our priorities right.

My intention to go for No 2 in this party election (was) based on the support I received earlier, but at that point of time, Syed Husin ( photo ) had made it very clear that he would not seek re-election. (Thus) certainly we had to be prepared, (it is as) simple as that.

Now that he has decided otherwise, I am prepared to give way to him and to support his leadership because I have seen his commitment to the party and his credibility. It is my duty to convince other to join hands to support Syed Husin.

You said the party encourages healthy contest in line with the principle of democracy. How will your decision to pull out reflect on this?

This is not the factor in deciding whether I want to contest or not. Yes, the support is overwhelming but the fact that I can sit down, talk to the adviser, supporters and grassroots members is a process (based) on the democratic principle and I stick to that principle.

In politics, I can't act alone, one can't make an unilateral decision. I have to consult the president, adviser and my supporters. They may agree or disagree but as a leader, I have to decide based on consensus. That is one of the processes in a democratic institution like PKR.

Were you pressured by Anwar not to contest?

No.

Advised?

No. I discussed it with Anwar not only once, but on many occasions. It's not a matter of putting pressure on me. Why should they put pressure on me when I have received an overwhelming number of nomination from the grassroots members? I don't think that is the right strategy. It's not a matter of pressure but consultation. I (can contest) on the basis of practising democracy, but that is not (the issue at) the end of the day. He (Syed Husin) is a great leader, so I should work with him.

What did Anwar tell you?

I conveyed to him that I had decided not to contest and that I need more time to explain my decision to the grassroots, that I would come out with a statement definitely in the very near future...before the end of nominations.

Did you talk to Syed Husin before coming to your decision?

No, but I will convey my decision (to him) immediately after this interview. I have on many occasions communicated with Syed Husin because .. I needed to consult him (on many issues). As he said in his interview (with malaysiakini ), it was very correct that my relationship with Syed Husin is very warm. I respect him as a father, I have learned a lot from him about the struggle and on many issues, I have called him to seek advice. I have no problems with that and I will continue this working relationship.

Surely you must have been quite surprised when you heard he had changed his mind?

Certainly, I was shocked when he made that announcement during the party retreat - not directly that he would defend the post, but something to that effect. As a political leader, I can understand what he meant. Many others were taken by surprise as well. I met him after the retreat and he confirmed his intention to defend the post. That was in early February. I told Syed Husin that 'You can take (my word), I will give you my full support'. But I also said I need more time...to consult party members because this could not be my decision alone. That's what I did.

Did he talk to other leaders before he made the announcement?

I don't know about others but he never spoke to me before the announcement.

What is your political future since you are not going to contest any post?

I told (my supporters not to) worry about this. I am motivated by Anwar's request to assist him in the coming general election to ensure the success of the reform agenda (through the) formation of a steering committee in the party. There is a need for me to play a key role in this committee which is headed by Anwar...to realise the hope of the rakyat for PKR to lead the reform agenda and win the general election.

Why is there a need for a new committee when the party already has an election bureau?

It's a matter of co-ordination. We don't want the five bodies - Youth, Wanita, information bureau, the Menjana Tenaga Kecermelangan committee (strategic planning committee for the general election) and the election committee - to move independently. They should speak in one voice and act as one.

Why are you not considering retaining your post as vice-president since you have sufficient nominations to be eligible for contest? You do have that option.

I have the option to go for No 2 (but) I won't; I have the option to go for No 3 (vice-presidency but) I won't. Make it simple. Don't make things difficult for me. This is my option like you said. (laughs)

Do you think your decision not to run for any party post will be misconstrued as a sign of protest?

If I contest, they say certain things. If I pull out, they say certain things. I can't deny their right to say things, but I make my decision based on consultation and I want to move on. I am not interested in engaging in petty squabbles. The larger party agenda must override personal interest, personal feeling and personal relationships.

Is there any attempt to sabotage the nomination process? We understand there was some confusion about the number of the nomination that you received?

I don't agree with that, it's not the matter of sabotage. Based on reading the malaysiakini report, your source was the information bureau. I don't think it is right for any institution outside the party circle to check with the information bureau.

If you want to check, the best person is the secretary-general (Kamarul Bahrin Abas) because he has the full list of the divisions which have conducted their meeting and the nominations submitted to the headquarters. I am not putting blame on any party but the fact was the figure was not correct, I have no qualms about it. So what? 16? 14? 14? 16? But up to now, based on the report that I've received, I am leading the nomination race but that is not the issue. After all, it is the nomination process, not the election.

There are certain quarters in the party that do not prefer a combination of Anwar and yourself to lead as president and deputy president. They feel both of you are alike in terms of character and they want a more neutral character to be No 2. Is this true?

I too have heard that argument. I also heard another argument that, if I contest the post of deputy president, then the element of PRM (headed by Syed Husin) will become non-existent in PKR. I disagree totally. I accept Syed Husin, R Sivarasa and many others not as PRM members but PKR members, otherwise what's the meaning of the merger? (Anything else) would mean that we have failed to merge. So I don't buy this argument. I support Syed Husin not because he was a PRM member but because he is a PKR leader and a great leader at that. I support Sivarasa for the same reason.

(The original argument with which I also disagree) is a desperate move by some quarters in the party to discredit me and my ability to lead. I don't want people to see me as a private secretary to Anwar, I will not allow that. I am very certain that, from the nominations that I've gathered from those divisions, those members accept me as a leader who has shown his commitment to the party. That's it.

So you should treat me as a party leader, you should not treat me as a former private secretary to Anwar. Yes, I served him for almost a decade, but that doesn't mean this argument should deprive me of my right to move further (up) in the party leadership.

Let the members decide. If they buy this argument, do you think they will vote for me, support me? Certainly not. I left that post many years ago (although) I am still assisting Anwar in many ways. When we decided that Nik Nazmi (Nik Ahmad, Anwar's current aide) should succeed that particular post, I give my full support to Nik Nazmi. I don't interfere in the management of Anwar's office. I am helping him (Nik Nazmi) based on my past experience but that doesn't mean I can't grow politically based on my track record. I am very certain that the support from the divisional members are based on my service to the party.

You seem pretty frustrated about this perception against you...

No, I expect that (to happen), this is politics. So far, alhamdulillah (praise to God), I've managed to deal with this desperate move and I want to move on.

There are quite a lot of negative perceptions and allegations against you. One is that you practised money politics in the run-up to this party election, such as your announcement to donate RM20,000 to the Gombak division for welfare purpose, which is being seen as a way of campaigning. What do you have to say?

I never announced a personal contribution at the Gombak annual general meeting, it was misquoted. What I suggested at the (Gombak division) committee meeting prior to the meeting was that the party should have a special fund to help PKR members and the rakyat with emergency aid - for children to go to school, (people) whose houses are burnt and things like that.

It's not even a donation, it's going to be soft loan for the poor and needy people in Gombak. I announced the committee's decision. I am not going to contribute RM20,000, I didn't say that. I didn't contribute a single sen. We have to raise funds from supporters (or) if there are corporate figures and party members who would like to chip in, we would welcome that.

As for other allegations I accept them in good faith because this is politics. You think I agree with that (money politics)? I don't agree because we should inculcate new political culture in PKR. If I have done something wrong, (my accusers should) produce evidence. I am not fit to be in this party if I practise corruption, but if you pass around a wild allegation against me, how do I defend myself? If the members bought these allegations, it wasn't reflected in the last three party elections. You pass allegations against me but do not substantiate these with evidence. So far, none.

It is also said that you have been abusing your position as election director in campaigning for the deputy presidency up to now.

Proof? They have to prove it. I have said nothing about party elections, nothing, zero (during the PKR election training workshops). The first state (to hold the workshop) was Penang, the last (was) Kelantan and that was just before the nomination started in February. I've said nothing about the party election, so why does this small group of people feel very insecure?

Because the members and divisional leaders can see that I am working, that I deliver my words as the election director. I really work hard for the party and they show appreciation of this through the nominations. It is as simple as that. I don't go out and campaign, I don't use SMS to campaign, I've never made any single call to any state or division chief asking for nominations. None.

These guys they have time to say nasty things because they have nothing else to do. They have failed in the duties entrusted to them by the party, so they pass nasty remarks against leaders who are busy working for the party.

Is that due to another common perception that you are very close to Anwar and block other leaders from getting close him? Many see you as being the cause of problems within the party like the recent resignation of (ex-Youth chief) Ezam Mohd Nor.

How could I stop them from communicating with the president and the adviser? With the latest technology, even if I stay put at the main gate of Anwar's house or office in Petaling Jaya, the members and leaders can communicate (with him) through e-mail, SMS or go directly to him. I know for a fact that some leaders even go abroad to communicate with Anwar. Who am I (to stop them)? The issue now is whether Anwar or the president will be able to buy their argument or not. That is not my fault.

They are talking about face-to-face meetings and you do arrange such meetings for Anwar.

As I said, they travel abroad with Anwar, do you want me to name them? (Laughs) It's more than one (person). Why blame me? If you can travel to Dubai, Washington, London, Middle East, Bangkok, Jakarta, what you need to do is to impress the adviser with your arguments. If I block them, they can always go to Nik Nazmi. It doesn't make sense to me. I heard this argument, you think I buy it? What is important for me is to get down to work.

Let's talk about the upcoming party congress. There are divisions in Kedah which have nominated Abdul Rahman Othman for the president's post.

That is again part of the democratic principle. Why can't Anwar be challenged? It's up to the members to decide. We respect the right of Merbok and Padang Serai to nominate (somebody) other than Anwar. I've said that my responsibility is to enhance democracy, we can have a healthy contest.

If people say that a contest will lead to disunity, this is very narrow-minded and proves that they can't accept democracy. If we can show people we can manage democracy well in our party, we can then prove to people we can manage democracy in the country.

But you have criticised Abdul Rahman before for saying that the party is corrupt...

Abdul Rahman openly attacked the party in the mainstream media, that is his character. But if any division still can accept this kind of characteristic, I have to accept that this is the division's decision. Maybe they are interested in this kind of figure - who openly attacks the party and yet wants to be president. I can't understand that, but in the end it will be a decision for the members.

What about the party's plan to make Anwar the next president?

In the first place, the nominations came from divisional level. Anwar has not decided whether to accept or not, so we should not jump the gun.

Anwar has made it quite clear that he is willing to run for president.

He said he respect the wishes of the party and members. He will accept but at the same time, we have to look at the technicality in terms of having him lead the party after the congress. We don't accept his (criminal) conviction because that was a (politically motivated) conviction, but we have to deal with it. The lawyers are looking into all aspects. Anwar made it very clear at the last political bureau meeting that we will decide (on the matter). What is important is that we won't allow the party to be deregistered by the authorities, that is the bottom line.

Syed Husin has suggested making Wan Azizah the acting president until the ban on Anwar's political career is lifted. Is that idea viable?

I don't think the term is 'acting president'. (The discussion was that we) can always call an EGM (extraordinary general meeting) to elect a new president (if the authorities refuse to allow Anwar to be an office bearer). We believe the best choice is Wan Azizah (but the term used) will not be 'acting president'.

What about making the deputy president the president?

That was not discussed.

Why does the party seem to like ensuring that the top post is held by either Anwar or Wan Azizah?

That was the consensus and the wishes of the party. Of course they want Anwar to lead because we believe he will make a difference in the coming general election irrespective of whether he is contesting or otherwise. He has personal charisma, he inspires young Malaysians to move on and to push for the reform agenda.

He has clear agenda on (how) Malaysia (should) move forward to become a first-class nation in the region. Through my engagement through open- or closed-door meetings, programmes with members, and discussions with political leaders including those from Umno and BN and some corporate figures, I see that they believe that Anwar should lead the country.

That is a popular perception now because they need a strong and credible person to lead the country. We are seeing a leadership crisis so even Umno now believes the best bet is Anwar. I don't undermine the contribution of Syed Husin or others but this is the reality on the ground - as Syed Husin has acknowledged. Wan Azizah has strong appeal among women and professionals, and that is an important element for the party.