Keadilan vice-president and former Internal Security Act detainee Tian Chua speaks to Bangkok-based magazine Irrawady on Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad's threat to expel Burma from Asean if it fails to free detained pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

Irrawady: What do you think of Dr Mahathir's recent comments about Burma needing to be expelled from Asean?

Tian Chua:

I think that his comments came as a surprise to many people. Mahathir is not known as a leader who respects human rights, but in any case his comments have definitely stirred up a lot of controversy and a lot of discussion.

I think they have had positive effects, because human rights were never strongly on the agenda at the Asean Forum, and human rights has always been seen as the internal affairs of respective countries.

What Mahathir said was a milestone because now it means that human rights in Burma are on Asean's main agenda. I believe that it will have a very strong, very deep implication for Asean if the issue is taken seriously. The pressure is not just on the Burmese government, it will mean that other Asean governments, among themselves, will have to start talking seriously about human rights.

If Asean doesn't take Burma seriously, what kind of action can the international community and trade partners such as the European Union and US take? Do you think Asean leaders are worried about international pressure?

I think that's precisely what happened. Burma's problem has been on the world agenda for many, many years. And Asean has been one of the major obstacles to democratisation of Burma because of the indifferent attitudes of its Southeast Asian neighbors.

At the same time, trade interests have heavily influenced relations with Burma. That has caused very slow progress and some in Asean have been rather happy to see the military dictatorship maintained.

I think that is why we see that there is a stalemate in discussions between the NLD (National League for Democracy) and the military regime.

Now Asean leaders realise they will be under tremendous international pressure unless they do something. Superficially the latest move was positive but I think Asean needs to do more.

But Asean doesn't have a united stance towards Burma. Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra says we have to be patient with Burma while Mahathir's recent comments indicate real impatience - he says Burma needs to move forward and free Aung San Suu Kyi.

I think that Asean has never really been committed to human rights, but Mahathir seems to make Burma an exceptional case. His personal dignity has been injured. Mahathir was promising the world that Razali Ismail ( right ), as special envoy, could use his charisma to persuade the Burmese dictators to liberalise a bit. Now it seems Mahathir feels he has lost face and he made a very drastic gesture when he talked about expulsion. This of course will bring discomfort to neighboring countries, because other countries in Asean are not great on human rights either.

So Mahathir's move is not welcomed by other Asean countries, but I personally think that unless the world continues to put pressure on Asean as a whole, whatever Mahathir says will just be a loud protest with no real effect on the whole situation.

But what about Mahathir himself? He engaged in personal diplomacy with Burma. He flew to Burma several times and met with the generals to convince them to make positive change.

I think Mahathir's diplomacy has not been done seriously for the last two years, that's why there's a stalemate. And now he realises he's running out of time. He will be retiring by the end of the year and it will be seen as his personal failure. That's why he's a bit erratic.

Was it just face saving then?

That's partly it, but I think the international community believes Mahathir himself has failed. And that's one of the reasons why Mahathir is so concerned.

Do you think Mahathir must be feeling betrayed by the leaders in Rangoon?

That could be the case. Mahathir probably just wants to have the regime free Suu Kyi and at the same time try to keep power by some sort of arrangement. But I don't think the military regime of Burma is willing to accept that. I think the arrest of Suu Kyi again has made people realise that everything has gone back to square one. There's been no shift by the military regime at all.

You were in prison under the Internal Security Act, and there are others being held for political crimes in Malaysia, including former deputy prime minister Anwar Ibrahim. Do you think people will see Mahathir's call on Burma as hypocritical?

Yes, I think that immediately people will think Mahathir is a hypocrite because he himself keeps political prisoners and then asks Burma to release political prisoners. That's precisely why Asean can not take issues on an ad-hoc basis.

Asean on the whole must develop a human rights mechanism. Must develop a human rights standard for all countries. It has to be applied to Burma very strictly, as well as all other Asean countries. I think this should be on the agenda for civil society in Southeast Asian countries to push for an overall human rights mechanism that can supervise or monitor human rights abuses in all Asean countries.

It is very clear now that we cannot talk about human rights as a national issue. It must be seen at least as a regional issuebecause human rights transcend all national boundaries and it affects everyone when a country, or a particular economy, experiences a human rights crisis. That's why we have to go beyond national boundaries when we talk about human rights.

What can Asean do, apart from expulsion? People are talking about suspension or sending envoys from Asean.

I think expulsion is not going to work because first of all, Asean doesn't have the moral credibility to expel Burma. If you start saying that, people will start to ask whether Mahathir is credible. What about Indonesia, which is bombing Aceh and killing civilians? What about Cambodia, where political killings are going on and the government rules by violence? People will ask about Laos and Vietnam - do they have democratic elections?

I think by selecting Burma as an outcast of Asean and saying they have been naughty and that they don't follow human rights standards, is not going to work because Asean itself doesn't have proper human rights standards.

What I think is more important is that we must unite the strong to unite civil society in Asean so they can actively pressure each and all of the governments to come up with a solution for Burma. This has to be throughout Asean countries, not just in countries like Malaysia or Thailand.

Do you think Burma will manipulate Asean opinion by using their famous divide and rule method?

I think so. The Burmese question is going to be a thorn in Southeast Asia but it's also been a catalyst to bring about a human rights and democratic discussion in Asean. So I think that Burma is very important. By addressing the Burma question, we bring up the whole issue of democratisation in the region.

I think that is why the international community as well as the whole Asean civil rights movement must start talking about human rights for Southeast Asia and through that, we have to find practical solutions for Burma.