Former health minister Chua Jui Meng, the most senior BN politician to have defected to Pakatan Rakyat, has described Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak as a leader who conceals his iron fist in a velvet glove.

"Najib is a decent man, I rather like him, he is a great PM, but he cannot be blameless because the PM calls the shots," said Jui Meng.

NONE "The PM in this country is too powerful - (he has) too much power over the institutions and parliament. I think it is time, and I hope that if Anwar (Ibrahim) ever becomes the PM, he will trim down these powers and give them back to the people,", said Chua (left) .

A former MCA vice-president and two-time unsuccessful candidate for party president, Jui Meng defected to Anwar's PKR two weeks ago.

Jui Meng, who has the distinction of being the longest serving health minister - nine years in all - talked to Malaysiakini last week at his home in Bukit Damansara.

He said that despite having left MCA, he was still a friend of party president Ong Tee Keat.

"I think he is a man that does what he says, and says what he does, a straightforward man, I like that kind of person," said Chua, a four-term parliamentarian for Bakri in Johor.

But the same cannot be said about Chua Soi Lek, the deputy president who is said to be making clandestine moves to oust Ong.

Jui Meng strongly hinted that Soi Lek is being backed by Umno.

"I said very clear during an address in my division assembly that today there are two MCAs - one elected by the delegates of central committee, and the other by the external forces.

"I see that Soi Lek is using his position to garner support for a future fight, so there are two MCAs, you cannot get away with it. You ask the people on the street, they will tell you that there are two MCAs, not of Tee Keat's making, but one made by an external force."

The following is the first of a two-part interview.

Malaysiakini : On the timing of your crossover to PKR, why did you pick now?

Chua: Very simple. The opposition coalition is under threat, both from conflicts within, but most importantly, threats from outside.

Were you thinking about this (the defection) for long, or was it a sudden decision?

It was a very quick decision.

How quick? Was it within weeks?

It was very fast. It was almost as though I was meant to do that. You know how it works in life - you may think about it, and then you put it at the back of your mind. But I have been thinking - whether I should do this or not - for quite some time.

NONE I love this country, and I have been in politics since May 13, 1969. In my heart, Malaysia is a beautiful country, with rich resources... then I see what is happening here. Why is it that there are still large segments of the Indian community poor, and the poorest states in Malaysia are the Malay states, why are the natives of Sabah and Sarawak suffering from poverty?

Hasn't God created this country with so much wealth so that the people can flourish and prosper together and live as one nation? These are the thoughts that have been going on in my head.

How long have you been thinking about this disparity?

I have been thinking about this even when I was a MCA member from 2005 to 2008, when I was bidding for the MCA presidential election, I had time to think about it.

A combination of events is shifting in this nation. This country is so wealthy. Dr Mahathir aked about the huge revenue to the government from petroleum, where is the money? Why is there so much poverty in Sabah, Sarawak, Kelantan, Terengganu, Perlis, Kedah? It doesn't make sense. Something doesn't gel there.

What was the catalyst?

I don't think you can say that there was any catalyst. A combination of events is shifting this nation.

When did (de facto PKR leader) Anwar Ibrahim talk to you?

Only recently. Approaches have been made to me, not by Anwar, but by others. I was offered a parliamentary seat even before the general election in 2008 and after the 2004 GE. I said to them, ‘Sorry, I had an agenda within the BN'.

I was hoping to reform in MCA ... and hopefully there will be some respect for MCA under a new leader of Umno, and MCA can have its own stand on policy matters.

When was your first meeting with Anwar?

[No answer].

Why didn't you join PKR after the 2008 GE, after the MCA lost many seats?

Well, the thing is this, I lost at the national level, but I won at the divisional level after a hard fight. I can't just leave my people and abandon them, and go over to one of the opposition parties, whichever it may be. I can't just abandon them. I'd like to have a good start and a good ending.

Some people interpret that after the recent war of words between you and (MCA deputy president) Chua Soi Lek, you seem to have found a new alliance with (MCA president) Ong Tee Keat.

No, I did not seek a war with Chua Soi Lek. After he got himself in a big mess with the scandal of the (sex) video. I was the only MCA leader that said something to comfort and bless him, expressing my sympathy to his wife, children and family. And I had no reason to do that.

He allied himself against me for several years now. Various things developed, I could see him coming to Bakri, my constituency, when he was the state-level chairman of Johor. I knew he would marginalise me, but there are certain things which you just keep to yourself.

Did Soi Lek see you as a threat?

Perhaps. I wouldn't know why he would do that. In politics, certain things are more obvious than other things. Then he came out with statements, undermining me, in Sin Chew Daily .

NONE It was quite a big article in the newspaper, national edition, not Johor edition, saying that I literally sabotaged the Barisan Nasional during the general election.

You cannot impale my honour and get away with it for your own political motives, which is why I have to come up and defend myself. I didn't seek a war, he did, and I just have to clear my name.

You have been a good friend of Tee Keat. But now that you have crossed over to PKR when he is facing internal problems, it does not look very good for him.

Before I leave, I made sure that I made my message very clear. On both occasions, when I was campaigning for the MCA presidential election, I came out - with no governmental and party position, except for my divisional chairmanship - with 36 percent (support) and the last one, 40 percent.

I have some standings in the party, and people recognised that. My reform was a statutory reform - it was not "play, play" reform, but real reform.

So you don't think Tee Keat will be able to bring about reforms?

When I saw Tee Keat being threatened, I told myself ‘that is my friend, this is the guy who stood by me', so I must do something to support him. When we fought in the presidential election, we fought on principles - no matter who wins, we remain as friends after the election.

Ong Tee Keat is still my friend, therefore I will stand by him. I think he is a man that does what he says, and says what he does, a straightforward man. I like that kind of person. So I said I will give him support, the central delegates will give him support. I did it not once, but twice.

At the last divisional AGM (annual general meeting), I told the people that this would be the last AGM that I would be addressing after 23 years. I sent very clear signals, my divisional people knew for some time that my heart is not in this local petty politics.

Some MCA sources claim that you are past your prime but you are still ambitious.

That was a fallacy first created by (former MCA president) Ong Ka Ting, (by) linking age to performance. This theory is nonsense, (it) forced all the young people to leave the party. You can be young and feel old, you can be old and feel young.

For me, if you have a passion for something, you are still young. I remember David Yeoh, a former senator, who said that, ‘I am 72 today, but I am prepared for a fight, I am prepared for the struggle. And when I joined PKR, I feel 27.' This is because he have passions.

Well, so have I.

Do you think there will be a huge number of MCA members who will follow your footsteps by joining PKR?

I have not asked anybody to do so. I came out, and came out myself, with my principles (intact). I had stated my principles clearly, they know that I had spoke about clear reforms in the MCA during the two presidential elections. They understand my heart. Those who are prepared to identify with my stand, about how I feel that this country should evolve, if they want to come, please come.

When people crossover, they usually evaluate the level of influence a leader has by looking at the number of members following his footsteps.

To me, that is not the most important thing. Just be true to yourself. When you are true to yourself, you are a one-man army.

Are there any indications that members in your former division will follow you?

I don't know about that. But I had signed an agreement with my deputy, who actually fought against me at the divisional election, saying that I will pass it on to him, with the condition that my divisional members can choose to go or stay. He will appoint my secretary as his secretary, treasurer, so on and so forth, which he did. So it was a happy separation from the division. My people are taken care of.

People are saying that you are unable to bring your own people across.

NONE Does it matter? Only time will tell who will follow me. I do have calls. I would not pressure them to do it tomorrow, it is still early.

A big group of several hundreds of MCA people from Sungai Besar are coming to support Anwar in a function. You see what is happening in this country, more and more people are saying the two-party system is under threat.

Does that mean you have given up hope on Tee Keat in bringing reforms in MCA?

I am hoping that he would. Although when he fought for the party election ... I can see that he's trying, especially in the PKFZ (Port Klang Free Zone) issue. But in BN, there is only one dominant party, and they call all the shots.

In fact, I told Tee Keat, your presidency is going to be tough, the expectation of the people is very high... the options are very limited. For example, where is the PKFZ report, which he said he was going to distribute it to the members of parliament? MCA didn't call the shots. As the minister of transport, Tee Keat didn't call the shots.

Unless the big boss says you can release, you can't release. I understand that Tee Keat is facing external forces, I told him to expect that.

I said very clear during an address in my division assembly that today there are two MCAs - one elected by the delegates of the central committee, and the other by the external forces. There are two MCAs, very clearly.

I see that Soi Lek is using his position to garner support for a future fight, so there are two MCAs, you cannot get away with it. You ask the people on the street, they will tell you that there are two MCAs, not of Tee Keat's making, but one made by an external force.

That external force seems to be Umno. In your speech the other day, when you were announcing that you are joining PKR, you had made it very clear that Umno was undermining the two-party system.

Obviously.

How do they do that?

Very obvious. MACC (Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission) goes into Perak, suddenly very hardworking, extremely competent, and arrested two of the Keadilan YBs - and the two are very critical - and charged them for corruption.

This shows how they are systematically using the institutions of this country. Perak has been a big blow for democracy. I was one of he MCA leaders who said back in the early days that we should call for an election in Perak.

Then we have so many other issues one by one, all the government agencies created by the constitution ... the police and MACC are meant to protect the interest of the people ... but they have been used.

NONE I mean, it was so obvious, when you want to do something, do it cleverly, but they did not even try to hide it, they do not care anymore.

People are upset, that is the most stupid thing any government can do. The people will say, enough is enough, time is up for you, we are the ones deciding what will happen to this country in future, not the government.

In many ways, Najib has been told to change, if not the people will change the government. The March 2008 general election is a demonstration of change wanted by the people. For the first time in a long time, people from all races want change together.

The MACC was expected to be a better version of the ACA (Anti-Corruption Agency). Former premier Abdullah Ahmad Badawi sought to create MACC as an independent agency.

I am sure Abdullah meant well when he created this organisation - to make sure that the interests of the people are protected, but the operators of the organisation had let themselves and the people down.

So is Najib worse than Abdullah in using government machineries?

Unlike Abdullah, we now have an iron fist behind the velvet glove. Najib is a decent man, I rather like him, he is a great PM, but he cannot be blameless because the PM calls the shots. To say that he does not have a substantial influence, I would not be telling the truth.

The PM in this country is too powerful - (he has) too much power over the institutions and parliament. I think it is time, and I hope that if Anwar ever becomes the PM, he will trim down these powers and give them back to the people.

Do you think Anwar will be able to do that?

I hope he can do it. I had address this to him when I join PKR. ‘There were some people who don't think highly of you in the past. You must really implement the Malaysia agenda and manifesto', he replied: "Chua, I went through six humiliating years in prison. I think one must go through the ... experience in order for you to have a character change."

So what kind of role will you play in PKR?

NONE I have a great sense of freedom, all the shackles of the past - the MCA monoracial culture - have been broken off me. It was an amazing sense of freedom.

MCA - Chinese, Chinese, Chinese, we must have more Chinese people like in China, Chinese language must be our first and formal language, that kind of thing.

And now I have come to a multiracial party, I said: "Look! I love the Malays of this nation, I took good care of the Malays when I was the minister of health, I would like to do something for the Malaysians, I do not want to see poor Indians, Malays, and Chinese.

So you felt shackled by MCA because of their approach and their racial politics?

I am only using the word "shackle" to express how free I feel, but it doesn't mean that I was shackled during the 23 years in MCA, but I felt restrained.

I love the multiracial approach, I see in PKR a unique opportunity to change this nation and the way the government has been working.

Part 2 of the interview will appear tomorrow.

VIDEOS - Part 1 (10 mins) l Part 2 (10 mins)