Q&A;

Former Indonesian attorney-general Marzuki Darusman was in Kuala Lumpur last week at the invitation of Suhakam. Marzuki was head of the Indonesian Human Rights Commission, or Komnas Ham, and is currently the body's adviser. He gave malaysiakini an exclusive interview.

Malaysiakini: Can you tell us the kind of problems which Komnas Ham had to go through in establishing its independence?

Marzuki : In the beginning, there was a lot of skepticism that a government established commission would be able to be independent from the government. This was the situation in the first six months. Then there was a case we looked into... the death of a woman activist in Surabaya.

That was a turning point in the commission's standing in that the members very vigorously investigated the case, and we came out with very strong recommendations which in a way laid blamed on the armed forces, and that was when we started to become credible in the eyes of the NGOs.

One case led to another - like the case in East Timor for example, where we were able to establish that members of the armed forces were involved in gross violations of human rights.

So it went on and other cases were investigated, and every time we made the findings public we gained further in credibility but this had the effect of somehow distancing us from the government, and at one point the impression was on the part of the government that we were linking up with the NGOs. We were aware of that and it was necessary that we somehow regain the confidence of the government that the commission was not biased.

It just so happened that there were further cases we looked into and the findings corresponded to the fact-finding efforts the government had itself started to undertake. At that time, the government had also tried to balance the commission by coming up with their own findings, especially regarding the armed forces.

Some of the findings of the commission were very close to the government's own findings. This led the NGOs to think that we were swinging back to the government. Finally, we ended up in the middle again - trusted by the government and the NGOs.

Being independent does not have to mean isolating oneself from the government or the NGOs. Being independent means you develop this notion of independence gradually based on experience, and it could also mean being equally influence both by the NGOs and the government.

That's how we define the notion of independence - as not being pressured to take a stand just because we were trying to avoid any impression of being in communication with the government or the NGOs.

Malaysiakini: How long did it take for you to achieve this?

Marzuki : It took us about two to three years to get there but there were situations which helped to speed it up.

One very important angle is international recognition, and this helped to give a certain stature to the commission. Recognition in terms of exchange of visits, inquiries made by the foreign government through our government, as well as the inquiries made by the United Nations through our government all added up to the status of the commission in the eyes of the international community.

Malaysiakini: What's the situation with the commission now? Is Komnas Ham helping to further the goal of human rights in Indonesian or is it being restricted by the government?

Marzuki : Komnas Ham is in a transition now because it is in an adjustment process to comply with a new law. Among new changes will be increasing the number of commissioners from 18 to 35. They're now in the process of submitting the names to parliament.

In terms of its effectiveness, it is going through a redefining process. And the challenge now is to somehow determine the area of activity of the commission very specifically because it has acquired a mandate based on the new law to initiate investigations, which will then be followed up by what is known as judicial investigations.

The commission is legally mandated to conduct fact-finding in cases brought to its attention. It has expanded powers. Therefore, there is also the challenge of recruiting new staff and assigning members to head its fact-finding missions. It is becoming close to being overloaded by the number of cases. The public demands investigation and this has really taxed the commission's resources.

Malaysiakini: When Komnas Ham came about in 1993, you became vice-chairman. At that time you were with Golkar. How did you manage to strike a balance because on one hand you had the regime which was responsible for several human rights violations and you were the deputy chairman of Komnas Ham at the same time?

Marzuki : I was asked to leave the parliament then and I was still in Golkar. It was not a constraining factor because at that point the choice was clear - that the commission was so much more relevant than the political party itself.

I was positioning myself in the commission without in any way having to compromise with the party. These cases really did not have anything to do in terms of conflict with the party. They were cases that had to do with public interest.

Malaysiakini: How were the recommendations made by the commission received by the government?

Marzuki : The president and the cabinet was always apprehensive every time the commission came out with a report. Primarily it was not so much the government as a whole but rather the armed forces. And it was always a tense situation whenever we announce we would be coming out with a finding, we would always have the armed forces reacting very visibly compared with the civilian government.

But they were not in a position to stop the publication of the reports as the authorities are in a way mandated to follow up on our recommendations.

Malaysiakini: Was there a change in the attitude when (former president) BJ Habibie came to power? Was there any changes in the armed forces and the government?

Marzuki : No, there was no change. The armed forces were again obstructionist. It tried to slow investigations but the politics of the day was such that the government could not afford to be seen as holding up the commission's work, internationally and domestically. So at the end of the day the armed forces were overruled and by political decisions.

Malaysiakini: How did the new government under former president Abdurrahman Wahid (also known as Gus Dur) see the commission and its role?

Marzuki : During Habibie's time, the chief of the armed forces was an army man. But the moment we changed to a navy figure, their attitude changed completely so we had the best cooperation from the armed forces during Gus Dur. That was a significant turnaround of the armed forces attitude until now. That really helped because it was the army that was obstructionist. Most of the cases involved the army.

Malaysiakini: So you don't think the current president, Megawati Sukarnoputri, is going to interfere with the commission's work?

Marzuki : The new government under Megawati will be neutral, but here again the law is clear - the commission is mandated to take up investigations. The problem is of course this government is less in terms of being vigorous in its (human rights) advocacy. It's probably the nature of the government itself so we may see some sort of a dip.