Q&A;

Samad Ismail, who is popularly known as Pak Samad, was detained three times under the Internal Security Act for alleged involvement in communism. He speaks to malaysiakini two days before he was sacked as New Straits Times 's editorial adviser.

Malaysiakini: What will be the future of Umno, especially after president Dr Mahathir Mohamad's tenure?

Pak Samad: It will be difficult to replace Mahathir. He has many ideas and vision. Abdullah (Ahmad Badawi, the deputy) has to introduce new innovative ideas like Mahathir but he will manage as the PM .. he will grow into his job. He must wait longer though as Mahathir will not be stepping down soon.

Like Goh Chok Tong in Singapore. First, they said he was not fit, very shy, not a good orator. Now people are more used to him than (former premier) Lee Kuan Yew.

Puteri Umno is a good start to regain some lost support but Umno Youth needs to be more aggressive.

Malaysiakini: Do you foresee Umno eventually opening its door to everyone?

Pak Samad: It will take a long time. The Chinese and Indians are more comfortable in their respective parties. Both MIC and MCA can deliver, so why should they join Umno? The MIC is going to set up a medical university in Melaka. And another one in Perlis. I think MCA and MIC have their own niche. For the Malays, the issue is education, whereas the Chinese want stability, security and more importantly the freedom to lead their own lives.

The position of the Indians are worst. There are more Indians who are poorer than Malays. They lack elementary education. A lot of things have to be done for them.

Malaysiakini: And your views on the pro-opposition student movements?

Pak Samad: They are all pro-Keadilan or PAS. These young people are cynical. They have political consciousness but are politically illiterate. There is a difference between political consciousness and politically illiterate. They don't discuss politics, instead they gossip about politics. You know what I mean.

I give you an example. When (Umno Youth chief) Hishammuddin Hussein went to Hongkong early this year to lobby for the 2008 Asean Games, there was criticism that we lost the bid to Qatar because our people showed video clips of Mahathir. These critics, including students, don't discuss it (deeper). Maybe the clip that Hishammuddin brought with him was not that comprehensive. Or he didn't do his homework. But these students are mostly cynical. This happens because they are not politically literate.

During my student years, I read Bernard Shaw's books, I subscribed to the nationalist magazines. Then I join politics.

Now, they are mentally lazy and they don't think. I joined Utusan Melayu in 1941 when I was 16. Utusan Melayu was the centre of Malay nationalism. Every day we talked about politics. So you get educated. You mixed around with politicians. You mixed around with leading nationalists of the period such as Ibrahim Yaakob, Ishak Haji Muhammad and Dr Burhanuddin Helmy. So you get educated.

Nowadays, students don't read, this is the whole trouble. They only know how to criticise Mahathir without substance.

Malaysiakini: Then, what will become of the present young people and is the government aware of this situation?

Pak Samad: Now they become cynics. They have become unconstructive and not positive. The government is quite aware and is afraid of extremism. You may be carried away by emotion, instead of using your head. So you join the Mujahideen. You become intolerant of other people's views. You want a Muslim state.

They don't respect other people's views and become dogmatic. They differ from my days. When I was in Singapore, I managed to persuade the young Chinese students to join PAP (People's Action Party) by being persuasive. Those fighting for a cause must be good talkers as well as good listeners.

If you want to propagate your views, you must be a good listener. You must listen to other points of view, then you can feel and understand what their grievances are, what their problems are. During my days in the trade unions in Singapore, I will just sit down and listen to the complaints of the Chinese worker for hours.

You must be a good listener. Then you learn from the people. You will know their grievances, then you become more aware of the problem facing our society, workers, teachers, that kind of thing.

So you can't blame everything on Mahathir. They say youths nowadays are involved in rape cases as a result of failed government policies. Everything you blame on the government, you don't blame yourself. You don't believe the newspapers, accusing them of being Umno propaganda and Mahathir's mouthpiece.

You must free yourself from prejudices. Then you can learn.

Malaysiakini: How do you view Keadilan?

Pak Samad: Keadilan is the same (as students). How long do you want to make (former deputy prime minister) Anwar Ibrahim an issue? Suppose Anwar does not come out in 20 years. So how many elections are we going to have? Four? Three?

Everybody wants to know what kind of society you want to set up. So Anwar is not everything. So what are you fighting for, what kind of society do you want? You want an Islamic state, or you don't want an Islamic state? Socialist state? Now we hear about extremists and jihad .

Malaysiakini: What about the possibility of PAS coming to power?

Pak Samad: I don't think PAS will come to power. Because the Malay dominated areas are only Kelantan, Terengganu, Kedah and Perlis, I think PAS alone cannot come to power. The middle-class Malays are very influential. There is a stable Malay middle-class in this country. They want stability. They share this with non-Malays.

Even in the rural areas, people tend to become materialistic with strong motivation to improve. There are now educated people in the rural areas. So I don't see in future where PAS can come to power on its own steam.

I don't think there can be an Islamic state without the blessing of other communities. The most I think the opposition can do is to reduce the two-thirds majority of the Barisan Nasional. But the opposition coalition itself is far from united. DAP wants to win back Chinese support and are attacking PAS over the Islamic state issue.

DAP is anxious to regain the Chinese support. They realise MCA is now a grassroots organisation with lower level support of the community, not just the taukehs .

This is a different MCA. The new generation of Chinese now think of themselves as Malaysians. They have no complexes. Before they were apologetic but now they are proud Malaysians speaking fluent Malay.