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After retirement, Tunku Abdul Rahman was offered a job with the Organisation of Islamic Countries in Jeddah. He returned home in 1973 and became active in Perkim, the Muslim Welfare Organisation of Malaysia. Soon after, he started writing his "As I See It" column in the Penang-based The Star newspaper, which is owned by MCA. The paper quickly gained in popularity and its scope of operations spread to Kuala Lumpur and the rest of the country.

K Das: Tunku, I would like to talk about the time of your involvement in The Star . Now, how was the money taken from The Star to pay for Multi Purpose Holdings?

Tunku: Oh! We didn't know about that. It was done behind our backs. When we saw the mounting debt of RM8.5 million, we were very surprised. So we asked them to explain how we got into debt to this extent because to the best of our knowledge, we didn't owe anybody any money. Then it was disclosed that when MCA joined us and when we moved to KL, we were using the building of Nanyang Siang Pau .

When it became so big, we decided to have our own building and I managed to get very cheap land for that purpose from land belonging to Aziz for RM1.5 million. It was in Cheras, in front of the Lady Templer Hospital. It was very cheap. Then after I had agreed to sell it to the staff for RM1.5 million, they decided to buy this new piece of land for which we had to invest RM16 million dollars.

K Das: In PJ?

Tunku: Yes, for RM16 million dollars. We undertook all the responsibilities of running and paying for Tong Pao because MCA bought Tong Pao . Then we had to use MCA House built by Multi Purpose and we had to pay RM200,000 a month. That was really a bit too much. The most I would pay was RM20,000 and even that was already too high. But we had to pay RM200,000 a month.

K Das: So that was how they got money from The Star - RM200,000 a month - for the Multi Purpose building.

Tunku: I promised to pay dividends to the shareholders who never had any dividends since they joined The Star . It had been recorded every year and agreed to by the members but they had never been paid a cent.

K Das: I think that during Lee San Choon's time, he did not interfere at all. He did not interfere too much.

Tunku: But they were doing this behind our backs.

K Das: I see.

Tunku: They are very tricky.

K Das: How was Gabriel Lee?

Tunku: He was all right. He was all right but they did not disclose to me at every meeting under the item. I can't remember how that amount of money then became our liability. After that, we got rather worried. Three years ago, when we asked for a report on this, they all started making general statements on it but we got no details as to how we got into this amount of debt. Then we found out all these things. It was terrible.

That is why he came to see me to assure me that everything would be all right. They sold their land in Kedah to pay the debt. Later on, they said they could only pay us about RM300,000. So I asked what was the good of this RM300,000 when every year we had to pay interest to the bank of nearly a million.

They were paying me money as chairman but I said, "I don't think it is an honest way of making money because I am merely writing for The Star ."

The mistake was to sell to the MCA. I did not realise they were like that and that was the mistake I made. I could have raised the money, I was not sure what it was going to be like. We were only selling to MCA for RM3,000? I could have asked people to buy shares, it was an easy way out. We were offered shares at 75 percent for it. Then Abdullah Ahmad came along to buy the shares, to take over. Where was I going to get the money? He said he would help, so I borrowed RM350,000 from him for my share. He paid me the chairman's salary which went towards paying the interest.

I asked Tun Mustapha to join. He came and paid out RM1.8 million but when the people started to see profit increase from RM3,000 to RM6,000 to RM10,000, he said he could not pay anymore. So it went to the MCA. They bought Tun Mustapha's share and bought my share. I kept only 30,000 - it was 350,000 before. I paid from my salary as chairman of The Star as interest towards the loan.

Perkim

K Das: Tunku, can we talk about your involvement with Perkim and its activities in MalaysiaWe know you are the president of this association. Could you give us an idea of how this came about?

Tunku: When I came back from my duties as secretary general of the Islamic Organisation in the Middle East, I was asked to take over the chairmanship of the religious welfare of Muslim converts. They don't call this missionary work but it is in fact missionary work because we work among those people who become converts to try and help them settle into their new life, to help them rehabilitate themselves and so on. We have achieved quite a lot of success and this is what they call work in connection with Muslim welfare.

When we heard that the Cambodians had sought refuge in our country from the tyranny of the new regime, our duty naturally was to help. There was no other organisation to do this, so we went to show them that Perkim was doing everything possible to look after them. They number something like 15,000. We got the help of the army to build tents for them and now they are moving them to more permanent quarters in Sungai Besi. Our immediate concern now is to find money to feed them, clothe them and to teach them the language so that as soon as they are able to speak Malay, we will then find work for them.

Most of these people are in fact quite well-to-do people in their own country. The poorer lot did not find any reason to flee but this lot, according to my information, had they remained behind, might have been killed by the communists because they are anti-communist. Their families are in the old anti-communist regime and some of their husbands are in military service or in the armed forces and so these are the people who have run away and sought shelter in this country. Our own government has not given any direct help so it has become my lot to look after them.

Tunku: The state government gives very little to us, only RM10,000 a year.

K Das: Which state, Tunku?

Tunku: Every state, to their respective Perkim - it's not enough.

K Das: RM10,000 a year?

Tunku: In Penang, it's only RM3,000 and that is not enough even for one day.

K Das: Do you get anything from Fitrah?

Tunku: No, they did not give us anything. Fitrah would have been a great help to us if they could give us a bit. But when we have conferences and we ask the government for assistance, they'd help. They'd given us RM200,000 for a conference but the total cost was over a million. It is very difficult work.

K Das: The Pilgrims Fund, what is it called?

Tunku: LUTH. No, they won't give either, that is only for the pilgrims.

K Das: I would like to ask you this: Who started the pilgrims' fund?

Tunku: It was during my time but I can't remember now, too long ago. I cannot remember the details.

K Das: Do you think it was Ungku Aziz who came up with the idea first?

Tunku: I don't know. Did he say he started it?

K Das: Someone said he was responsible for the original idea to start it.

Tunku: It was my time but I can't remember.

K Das: He was very keen on cooperatives. He said that people were selling their property and pawning their land to go to Mecca.

Tunku: Maybe, but I don't remember.

K Das: In fact, I think he thought of it as a cooperative, when you save money in it, you can go to Mecca. Whose idea was Perkim?

Tunku: My idea. That was when I was PM. A few men like Mubin Shepherd, Chinese Muslims like Ibrahim Mah.

K Das: Ibrahim Mah, Mubin Shepherd, who else?

Tunku: Ahmad Nordin, his brother Aziz Zain and ... what is the name of that Indian Muslim, he was a member of the Senate? Ubaidullah.

K Das: He does not give many contributions. He is a miser.

Tunku: Miser. But he gave me that Bengal tiger for appointing him as a senator (chuckle) Bengal tiger! It is still in the room. So they sent a small tiger, it is also in the room. He said, "This is too small for you." So he got a very big one. It must have been very expensive.

K Das: Are you satisfied with your life and are you happy in your retirement?

Tunku: God has been very kind to me. I have served my time in the Middle East and I have served my time in this country as prime minister for 15 years and I cannot ask for anything better. I am treated well, I have the company of my horses, I have all my children who are fit and well and so I cannot wish for anything better. I give all my thanks to God.

Ghafar Baba overlooked

K Das: I met Ghafar (Baba) for the first time during the Confrontation (Indonesia's belligerent policy of Konfrontasi against the Malaysian merger) days in Malacca. I knew how he felt at that time. So when he changed his allegiance I was surprised, very surprised because he was totally loyal to you.

Tunku: He was. Then he knew he was the most senior vice-president. And so when Hussein Onn passed him over and picked Mahathir, it humiliated him in the eyes of all the others. Why was he left out? Yet he did not do anything, he did not protest, he just carried on as if nothing had happened. That is the mistake he made. But I was told he lost in his business ventures. He lost a lot of money, so to prevent himself from being sued, he accepted the post as deputy. Mahathir used him only to go around and campaign for him. That is what he is doing everyday.

K Das: But he is a sick man too?

Tunku: Yes, he just had a heart operation. According to Hussein, he picked Mahathir because he considered him the best man. That was according to him, but not according to the general assembly. According to Hussein, he is a doctor, a better, more serious man. Tengku Razaleigh (Hamzah) was the next best person but Ghafar was more interested in business.

Ghafar comes from a very humble birth without high education. Actually, his father was a headmaster and then later on, he became an officer in the audit department. But do you know, Ghafar had to go round and rake the dustbin to get his breakfast. He will tell you the story himself. You go and talk to him, tell him you are writing a book for Tunku and anything he wants to say will be very useful. He was the original member of the Malay Nationalist Party, MNP. As soon as I took over from Dato Onn, he left and joined me. He was one of the strongest supporters and helped to build up Umno. You go and see him.

K Das: These people are not very happy to see me because I am writing about you.

Tunku: You just say, "I am writing the Tunku's story. Have you anything to contribute because according to Tunku, you were one of his comrades, one of his strongest comrades when fighting for independence. Have you anything to say about it?"

Tomorrow: The Tunku tapes: Umno's power struggle - Part 5

The above is an excerpt from The Tunku Tapes - a newly launched book based on the interviews with Malaysia's first prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman by veteran journalist K Das ( photo ). The book is edited by social activist Dr Kua Kia Soong and is published by Strategic Info Research Development.