Q&A: Anwar hunkers down for dirty by-election

The opposition Permatang Pauh candidate said he expects a lot of mudslinging in this final of a two-part interview with Malaysiakini .

Malaysiakini: You're going to face some of your former allies - Ezam (Mohd Nor) and KS Nalla(karuppan) - and with the sodomy charge, the by-election is expected to be ugly and dirty. Are you going to play dirty as well?

Anwar Ibrahim: They will make it dirty, they have done it before. I want to stick to the agenda - what we want to do for the constituency, the state and the nation.

I will convey a strong message to the party workers tonight (Wednesday) that we should never be distracted, and we should not allow politics to be brought this low by the Umno and BN apparatus.

But if the specific issue (of sodomy) is raised then I think we have enough ammunition. They should not have preferred the (sodomy) charge in the first place, everybody knows that.

You know Ezam and Nalla, what do you think they'll be bringing out?

They can say out whatever they like, it has no consequences to me. I have not entertained them, and I will not entertain them.

Do you have any plan on countering these kinds of dirty tactics?

They've done it for the last 10 years. What's new? What's new with the (sodomy) charge, what is new about being American agent, and now Malaysian Chinese agent, what's new with this?

They will choose a probably different fault but I am going to face them head on. Yes ... I am an agent of the Chinese, the Indians, the Malays, the Ibans, the Kadazans, so what? Whom do you represent? So I think instead of being apologetic or defensive, you should go on the charge.

The difference is that they are going to address a small group of people who are going to put you in Parliament, so I suppose the fear of perception must be there. Especially among Malay voters.

People tend to underestimate the wisdom of Malay masses because they think that they are a bit slower in terms of responding, but I disagree because I think the Malay concerns - the issues of security or the position of the Malays - that's more paramount than these teething problems. I've seen even in Umno circles in Permatang Puah, they have no views on this, it's only used by those outside the coming campaign.

They (the locals) know me, I've worked with them, many of them are family members, many of them I grew up with, so it is incomprehensible for me to imagine that they could be easily duped into this. I've worked with them, I play with them, I sleep with them, and this has never surfaced until I reached the age of 51. They must have been a real expert to be able to hide all this 50 years. I therefore do not see this as a problem.

But I'm not underestimating their strength in terms of money - I think hundreds of millions of ringgit will be poured - and their dirty tactics in terms of malicious, scurrilous attacks, and also the use of the government resources, even intimidation... I've heard about ‘accidents on the way' or the possibility of thugs provoking our crowd...

But then, you're dealing with Permatang Pauh, and they've gone through this from 1999. You know, the intimidation, the campaign, the resources. No constituency in the past has seen prime ministers, ministers, being present that much in previous elections.

Look at what happened in Ijok (by-election). Do you fear that this could again turn out into a one-on-one battle against two prime ministers-in-waiting, between you and Najib (Abdul Razak)?

No, I don't wish to have it as a personality contest, or beauty contest, between the two. It should be focussed on the agenda. And I think many Malaysians, many of my friends from here, from Johor - Malays, Chinese, Indians, people from Sabah and Sarawak - want to come and see or help in the campaign.

It's not a personality issue, but what we represent that's very important. I think it's here (in Permatang Pauh) on whether Malaysians want to change or go back to the old business as usual.

I was just with a group of very prominent investors in this region. What did they talk about? Vibrant economic policy, judicial reform. I said why? Because in all cases of litigation, they always have a clause where they be adjudicated in Singapore, in Hong Kong. That shows a lack of confidence.

I am very pleased, in the midst of their busy schedule, they still insisted - they said to please spend one hour with us, we want to get your views on the economy, and what Pakatan (Rakyat) has to offer.

Your birthday wish is a big win. How big a win will that be? Will that be better than Wan Azizah's 13,400-odd votes?

No, I want a convincing mandate, because it is a mandate for Malaysia, for the future of Malaysia, but I'm also mindful of the fact that this is a by-election, and from the sources that I have, we can see from the extreme Malay racist campaign using Islam jargons, Malay survival, has been used by (Prime Minister) Abdullah (Ahmad Badawi) himself to see that Permatang Pauh, supporting BN, will secure Malay survival.

Wanita talks about jihad . I mean, shocking for the most liberal, secular Malay, talking about jihad to preserve I don't know what. So you can sense this language of desperation. This is not good in our politics, and then of course, the huge sums of funds to be disbursed. So I'm not taking this lightly.

I hope to win comfortably, but I'm not too particular about the numbers because I know I am against the entire machinery - the federal government machinery and the party - and you have just seen in Malaysiakini in the last few days reporting RM218 million...

I cannot imagine RM218 million in 2004 (elections) just on posters and banners by the federal, not yet for the (party) divisions and the states. We are talking about hundreds of millions of ringgit. So we will have to work very hard.

Do you have a big war chest yourself for Permatang Pauh?

I was there last week, with (Penang Chief Minister Lim) Guan Eng, (PAS leader) Datuk Husam (Musa), going through some of the (election operation) offices. You know, the community coming out with the RM500, RM1,000 to man these offices, people donating drinks, food. I went to some of the weddings and also a funeral - like in four weddings and a funeral - and you know the villagers served special lunch for 50 of us, so you can sense this mood too.

Yes, we have to be prepared with some resources for posters, for the machinery, and I have to heighten my personal security - I've been advised from so many quarters - so these things would require, but not the millions.

I mean frankly, if you talk in terms of money, how much can you give to the voters? RM100? They give RM2,000. You give RM500, they give RM5,000. So you can't win with that...

Polling day is going to be on Tuesday, a working day. Do you see that as a problem?

It is a problem. And it is clearly, without doubt, meant to reduce the number of (voters) turnout. To me, it is not only unfortunate but irresponsible on the part of the Election Commission to conduct elections knowing that the most of them (voters), particularly the (state) constituency of Seberang Jaya ... are factory workers.

Not only Seberang Jaya, up to Bayan Baru and Bagan. Which means that they have to take a half a day off, which is very difficult. So we have to do whatever we can. I had discussions with Chief Minister Guan Eng, but we're not in favour of declaring a public holiday because it gives a very wrong signal...

Is that on the cards?

I had discussions with him and I agreed with him that it is not a feasible idea, but then we have to work with the factories to say that, look, you have to allow these voters to come out...

But some of the factories are in Kedah.

Yes, some are working in Kulim, some elsewhere in Petani.

So declaring a public holiday in Penang would not affect Kedah ...

It's true, but a vast majority are in Penang. But then, in one factory there can be 60 voters. I agree with the chief minister that it (declaring a public holiday) may not be seen in a positive light by investors.

It will be uneconomical too ...

Yes.

So you are against a (public holiday) declaration...

Yes, I am not in favour, but I want to make sure that we can make alternate arrangements where these workers are given half-a-day break to come back because I think there would be massive jams.

I was there, for example, on March 8, there were massive jams ... and now I would assume it would be very, very bad.

How much would that affect the turnout - that it's not a public holiday?

Yesterday, they gave me a briefing, but then people were still quite enthusiastic. (They said) it will not be too much adverse. But then the problem is a practical problem. You're a factory worker in Kulim - what do you do? Unless you're given almost a day off, you are not able to vote. You can't come back in two hours - back and forth. You can't.

There are concerns about the attitude of the volunteer workers of PKR - I think two or three incidents have happened recently.

I am concerned. If you have seen my blog, even before that incident - I have already apologised - advised our team. Now investigations have been conducted by the (party) Penang committee and ascertain that the person was not our outfit. This is our problem, our worry. In fact, when I saw the photograph - because most of our staff would come in a special, particular dress code, he wasn't - but because at that time, we were not sure.

But notwithstanding, I would say that some of our security guys can be a bit rough, because there was so much concern about my personal security, so much have been talked about, you know, and the things they find on people, carrying a knife or whatever. But the way they push, sometimes can be a bit hard. And I've seen it with my own eyes, and I appeal to them to control this.

Azizah went ( Guan Ming Daily ), of course, and apologised and spoke to the girl (photographer)... For example, I had the meeting this morning, a lot of people said, ‘look, we can't take the risk'. I don't know, I always half-joke with them - some insisted that I wear a bullet-proof vest - and I joke with them that when Benazir (Bhutto) was shot, she was wearing a bullet-proof vest.

Isn't this heightened security going to drive a wedge between you and your supporters? Wouldn't it be better for them to actually be able to approach you, talk to you, especially during the campaigning period?

I still insist that I still go on shaking hands and things like that, but there are certain periods where they (the crowd) can be a bit ecstatic. I do come back sometimes in pain. But they're excited, you have to entertain. If they line up properly, then I would have the patience, but if they start pushing ... but the back - the pain can be quite excruciating.

If I go up to visit the villagers, I make sure I salam everybody, but with a big crowd, 20-25,000, that makes it a problem, so normally they have to whisk me off. I'm not too happy - I've been in this game for a very long time - I enjoy myself in shaking hands... So you want to do it, but you have also to balance with the real security concerns.

Do you really have this fear that they might actually stop you from submitting your nomination forms - finding a technical problem, something like that?

Well, in Malaysia Bolehland, I don't preclude anything. I've said no way can I be assaulted to near death, I was. I said no way can they prefer charge where there's no basis whatsoever, they did. I'm not precluding that possibility.

I've heard some comments to that effect. So we will have to take into account, that is why the legal team worked very hard to look at every single possibility, issue of eligibility, issue of charge, everything...

There could be an issue of complacency in your case, knowing full well, ‘this is my area, I'm going to win'.

I am certainly not complacent because this is the first election since '82 - when I went in the first time - that I am going to be there, camp there, from before nominations until election day. After that, from '86 onwards, I had been campaigning all over (the country). I mean, probably in '95 when I contested the elections, I was there (only on) the nomination day and prior to the elections - two days.

But now, I'll be there, which means I'm not taking this for granted, I'm appealing to my supporters, my friends, work very hard to meet every single constituent, and I'll try to cover as many places as possible.

Do you consider this as your toughest electoral campaign?

Not toughest, in the sense that '82 I had to contest in a PAS-held seat, but it is challenging because we're talking now about a Malaysian agenda. Challenging because you know that the forces of the Umno leaders seem so desperate. You can see in their language of discourse - Malay survival, jihad, which is clearly hypocritical - but they use it. So in that sense, it is challenging.

Umno is claiming that Dr Wan Azizah (Wan Ismail) has not done anything for Permatang Pauh. Secondly, what is your message for the voters? Are you going to bring in the Malaysian agenda or are you going to address local issues? Thirdly, as for the identity of your opponent - we don't know who it is going to be but it could be someone who knows you personally - that means he will also know the locals.

Firstly, Azizah. Azizah has been a great MP. Of course, she can't build the maktab perguruan (teachers college) and polytechnic - all built when I was the MP. Don't forget, I am the candidate now. I don't think they can find fault in terms of Azizah's work. She goes back virtually every week, even when she was leader of the opposition. Sometimes I said, take a break lah , I used to joke with her and say ‘look, you're taking it too seriously'.

But if they make the issue on Azizah, I say the issue is Anwar. You can see most of it, be it ITM (Institut Teknologi Mara), or maktab perguruan , or basic infrastructures from '82, I did serve, and that, to my mind, is quite known in the constituency.

Second issue, who is going to contest? I don't know. Even if it is a local, okay, but I don't think we should go to the extent to be very personal. But I'm proud to be a local, I'm proud to be constituency (representative) in the area. To me, it is also sentimental - I grew up in the area.

And your message?

Yes, we will have to address some local issues, or Penang issues. I think the state government is doing reasonably well. I heard chief minister Guan Eng the other day talking - they are saying what have you done for the Malays in Penang - countered it very effectively. But I think this election is also about the future of the country, future of Malaysia, so there are going to be a lot of discussions on national issues.

Was Permatang Pauh always your choice of constituency... or were you toying around with other constituencies, Kulim, and other places. Had you always concentrated on Permatang Pauh?

Smart question. I would feel most comfortable in Permatang Pauh, and they (the locals) have this affection, which is mutual. But yeah, Permatang Pauh was and remains the major consideration, although people do ask me to seriously consider Kulim, but then we look at the dates, it was not possible, it's too late, and even Bandar Tun Razak.

But then, the issue would be Anwar ... in Parliament, Azizah in Parliament, and Izzah, so we thought that it may not be seen that well, although Izzah by consensus was pushed to be a member in parliament there (Lembah Pantai), but she announced even in 2008 that she would vacate the moment I'm eligible.

Not withstanding the recent allegations against you, would you still have called for this by-election during this period, or where you forced to move up the date because of the allegations?

Frankly, the date was to be made earlier. The date was supposed to be the Tuesday before - remember that Saturday was the first (police) report, it was supposed to be that Tuesday.

So there was already a plan?

Yes, there was. In fact, I made it very clear, very known, that I am supposed to contest. That was why you can see my going to Bandar Tun Razak and Permatang Pauh quite regularly. Of course, Kulim was a bit later. I mean, people can see that. I was about to announce on Tuesday with two MPs from East Malaysia and two here - four, they were supposed to defect.

If nothing had gone on that Saturday (when the police report was lodged by a former aide alleging sodomy), Tuesday you would have announced that you were going to contest in Permatang Pauh?

Yes, on that Tuesday, which was about a month ago.

Watch 7-min video of Anwar's interview

Part 1

PKR leader: I can forgive, not forget

Q&A: Their fear must be real