Conversion: Gov't happy to leave things in limbo?

The government has not done anything to resolve conversion cases in the country as it prefers to maintain a state of uncertainty about the subject, said Azmi Sharom, a renowned law professor in University Malaya (UM).

In the case of R Subashini's custody battle with her former husband T Saravanan @ Muhammad Shafi Saravanan Abdullah, he said it was the perfect example of the government keeping the "Muslim fundamentalists happy and putting forward their Islamic credentials".

I n an interview with Malaysiakini in his office this week, Azmi said the couple was supposed to settle the case in the civil court first rather than the Syariah court, as their marriage was established outside Islamic law under civil contract.

"If they want to dissolve the marriage, then they should be under that (civil) law because both parties entered this agreement with this contract.

"But when one of them converts to Islam halfway through the marriage and goes to the Syariah court, that court should have nothing to do with the relationship because the relationship was not established under Syariah jurisdiction," he added.

Asked about the reason why the government is not pushing to solve the family law issue, Azmi claimed that the government is "happy to leave things at the state of limbo".

"But they have to respect the parties who were under the original contract, which is the civil law contract," he asserted.

The embroiled custody battle between Subashini and Saravanan has continuously resurfaced since 2006 when the latter had converted to Islam, taken the name Muhammad Shafi, sought a divorce and applied for custody of the couple's two children through the Syariah courts.

Subsequently, Subashini filed for an injunction against Muhammad Shafi's action at the Syariah Court but was rejected at all levels up to the Federal Court.

Azmi further explained that last Saturday's controversial Bar Council forum on 'Conversion to Islam' was supposed to solve the issue of the Federal Court that provided for the case to be left open to the civil and Syariah courts to decide.

"This is a completely unsatisfactory decision. Now what if she was to go to civil court and he was to go to Syariah court and the (courts) come up with different decisions?

"Now how are you going to solve that? These are the kinds of issues unresolved and are the kinds of issues which the forum, I believe, was trying to solve," he added.

Below are excerpts of the interview:

Malaysiakini: On conversion, there are many issues now, converts who do not inform their family, they die, and so on. Do you think there should be stricter processes in conversion rather than saying the syahadah (declaration of faith)?

Azmi Sharom:

At the end of the day, religion is a personal thing. Why should we make it something which has to be declared? Ultimately, religion is personal. It is quite offensive that people must have their religion stated on their IC. Why? What is the purpose of this? What's my religion, it's my business and not yours.

Admittedly in Malaysia, there is an element of legality, that Malay has to be a Muslim and if you are a Muslim, then you have to be a Malay, fair enough. But with regards to people's religions in general, specifically when it comes to conversion, why do we have to announce it? Why should these people's private decision be made public? Is it because of the burial rites? And it became an issue because he didn't bother to tell his parents or siblings, that's his family issue. Why should the government agency get involved as if they are the moral custodians of the souls of everybody in this country? That's not the way it should be. That's a private matter, let them deal with it.

The cases of those who want to re-convert to their original religion is particularly tricky. They might tell their family that they wanted to convert back to their old religion, but they did want to inform the the authorities for fear of punishment. It is clear that you have a whole system that does not encourage openness. So that's the problem and that's what we should be looking at but I don't see that happening.

We are trying to make sense of what happened on Aug 9 when the Muslim NGOs - where some of them got together and protested outside the Bar Council building - on the forum the Bar Council organised on conversion. What are the issues at stake here?

Freedom of expression - the bar has every right to organise this forum. From my understanding, it was organised in a very respectful manner with representatives from all sides. So it was a perfectly legal and respectful gathering disrupted by an illegal gathering. My primary concern is that freedom of expression has been controlled, not by the government anymore, but by a mob group. So that's one major concern of the incident itself.

You mentioned just now about family issues - in terms of Syariah and the civil courts. What must be done to resolve this? Do you think there was a suggestion before that when one spouse converts, that he must settle his issues with the other spouse in the civil court before the conversion?

That's absolutely right. You enter into a marriage, and that is essentially a contract under civil law. At this time, both are non-Muslims/ So if anything happens to the marriage later, then it should be resolved first under civil law because both parties entered this agreement with this contract, with the understanding that this particular law is protecting both of them. If one party wants to convert to Islam and go to the Syariah court, that court should have nothing to do with the relationship because the relationship was not established under Syariah jurisdiction in the first place.

The couple should first settle the matter in the civil court and then, go your separate ways. One can go on the Syariah life later, and the other can continue the civil life - there is happiness for everybody. That's the way it should be done. And it is not the view of liberal Muslims and people like that. The head of Ikim (Institute of Islamic Undertsanding) said exactly the same thing.

So why isn't the government moving towards that?

It's sad that they are not. But they have been giving half-baked ideas like the case of a convert having to announce the conversion to their families, but this is for the body-snatching type cases. In regards to family law cases, they have not made any progress. Why they have not done it, I don't know. But my feeling is that they prefer to have a state of uncertainty like this, because they want to keep the Muslim fundamentalists happy with them and they're trying to push forward their Islamic credentials. I think they're quite happy to leave things at the state of limbo without sorting it out.

If all these conversion issues are not resolved and continue to stir emotions and anger, it could lead to serious consequences. What is your opinion on this?

It's all about poor leadership. Political leaders have been pandering to those in the wrong - like the bunch of thugs who attacked the Bar Council. They have not shown the strength for civil dialogues and discussions. Then, there is the Malay press in particular which contorts the Bar Council fiasco on the accusations thrown at them as opposed to focusing on what they are actually doing.

So you have this kind of situation where the irresponsible are allowed to carry on at their own terms. The Malay press are all controlled so the other avenue to have their voices heard is to organise a forum.

At the event, the conservative elements of Islam were given the opportunity to bring their views forward. Ikim was invited, if I'm not mistaken, and a representative from Syariah court was invited but pulled out on the eve of the event.

If you have the courage, then you should have attended and given your point of view. Debate, engage, dialogue - come and stand your ground. There's no need to protest and be rowdy. With all due credit to her, Mehrun Siraj, the representative of the orthodoxy of conservatism was there and she did state her stand. But what about the others? But no, they prefer to demonstrate and do damage to the forum. Yet, the political leaders are letting such elements run free. So for me, the problem is the lack of good leadership.